< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
|Jan-17-08|| ||zenpharaohs: Did they give this puzzle just to stop me from picking bones with the subsequent game line in these puzzles?|
|Jan-17-08|| ||Fourpointo: So what was 16. Qf5 for? Why not just 16. Rxf6?|
|Jan-17-08|| ||zb2cr: Found this one, though it took me about 4 minutes (after 5 minutes I normally give up).|
|Jan-17-08|| ||Duque Roquero: <FourpointoSo: what was 16. Qf5 for? Why not just 16. Rxf6?>
Ne4 is not possible because Bxe4.|
|Jan-17-08|| ||Avarus: First I thought there was some finesse to it but "settled" for the winning line when I found Ba3 + Ne4. I have to say I did not consider <YouRang>'s ..Nb4! as a serious defense, but it is better then just losing on the spot.|
|Jan-17-08|| ||wals: Making notes of my "think" to interpret
and organize the data available
White has more territory on the Queenside, the centre, and the Kingside.
The diagonal b1 to h7 is open.
Removinng Nf6 would result in mate
Post mortem....It certainly did
|Jan-17-08|| ||bakit: maybe Grampmaster can answer my query|
|Jan-17-08|| ||patzer2: For today's Thursday puzzle solution, White's 17. Rxf6! removes the guard (i.e. deflection) to set up the winning double attack described in <fm avari viraf>'s post.|
|Jan-17-08|| ||Akuni: Pretty obvious for a thursday puzzle.
|Jan-17-08|| ||Grampmaster: <bakit if 16.Qf5! hxg5> then how about 17.hxg5 instead of Rxf6? With the open h file, Black's Knight on f6 under immediate double attack and the White rook on d6 still menacing Black and the White bishop can take up residence on a3 at anytime.|
Looks like a position that even an old patzer like me would love to play.
|Jan-17-08|| ||JG27Pyth: Folks are giving 16.Qf5 an exclamation point -- well, ok maybe. But I rather think 15...h6 deserves a big fat question mark. Did Ibraev really think 15...h6 would chase the N? IMO, it doesn't take great tactical or positional vision to see that after black takes the N, and white plays hxg5 the white rook pointing at the king along the open h file will be decisive. I spent a good part of my problem-solving time wondering if there was some way I could _compel_ Ibraev to play hxg5. |
|Jan-17-08|| ||dzechiel: <patzer2: For today's Thursday puzzle solution, White's 17. Rxf6! removes the guard (i.e. deflection) to set up the winning double attack described in <fm avari viraf>'s post.>|
Actually, FM Viraf's post is incorrect as he gives 19 Ba3+ instead of the winning 19 Ne4 first.
|Jan-17-08|| ||Steve Case: Should have been Monday's puzzle.|
|Jan-17-08|| ||NateDawg: <<bakit> if somebody kindly explain why 16.Qf5 ? i would have moved 16.f3 preventing 16...Be4. but then i'm an 1800. thx in advance> 16...♗e4 is not possible because of 17. ♘xe4. There is no need to prevent it with 16. f3.|
|Jan-17-08|| ||OBIT: 17. Rxf6 is the simplest solution. Just to be different, though, how about 17. c5!?. The idea is Bc4, putting tremendous pressure on the f-pawn. |
Black has great difficulty finding a useful move here. 17...Ne7 allows 18. Qxe5, opening the long diagonal to the bishop on b2. If 17...Qe7 18. Bc4 Nd8 19. Qg6 and White breaks through. Agreed, 17. c5 is not as clear as in the game, but it certainly looks like it gives White an unstoppable attack.
|Jan-17-08|| ||NateDawg: <OBIT> 17. c5 ♘e7 18. ♕xe5 allows 18...♘c8! with a double attack on queen and rook. However, White doesn't seem to have anything better, so Fritz evaluates the position after 17. ♘e7 as .|
|Jan-17-08|| ||NateDawg: It seems that 16...♘c6? was Black's big mistake, as the bishop controlling e4 was the key to Black's defense. After 16...♕e7 Black can defend according to Fritz. 17. ♖xf6 ♕xf6 18. ♕h7+ ♔f8 19. ♗a3+ d6 20. ♗d3 ♔e7 21. ♘e4 ♗xe4 22. ♗xe4 ♘d7 23. ♗xa8 ♖xa8 24. ♖d1 ♘c5 and Black isn't too bad.|
click for larger view
|Jan-17-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <Grampmaster: <bakit if 16.Qf5! hxg5> then how about 17.hxg5 instead of Rxf6? With the open h file, Black's Knight on f6 under immediate double attack and the White rook on d6 still menacing Black and the White bishop can take up residence on a3 at anytime.|
Looks like a position that even an old patzer like me would love to play.>
I agree that white is winning in this variation but for the moment he is a piece down, and I spent a lot of time analyzing before settling on a clear winning continuation. The position does not play itself and requires accurate play:
<16.Qf5 hxg5 17.hxg5 Ne4 18.Qh7+ Kf8 19.Ba3 Nc5.>
I initially gave up on this line thinking black was OK (obviously 20.Qh8+ Ke7 is bad, since queen and rook are both en prise).
After trying in vain to create alternative mating nets, I came back to this position and found <20.Bxc5 bxc5 21.Rf6> (This move works tactically since 21...gxf6 fails to 22.Qh8+ Ke7 23.Qxf6+ Kf8 24.Rh8#) The move 21.Rf6 generates multiple threats that allow white to build a winning position. The critical threat is 22.Qg6, with the threat of mate on f7. This concept is supported tactically by the following ideas:
22...R or Qe7 23.Rh8#
22...gxf6 23.Rh8+ Ke7 24.Qxf6+ Kf8 25.Rh8#
22...Qxf6 23.Rh8+ (23.gxf6?? fxg6 ) 23...Ke7 24.gxf6+, taking with check and allowing white to subsequently save his own queen.
The only move that stops all this after 21.Rf6 is <21...d6>. Now 22.Qg6 doesn't work, since 22...gxf6 23.Rh8+ Ke7 24.Qf6+ and now the king has a flight path with 24...Kd7
However, forcing the passive 21...d6 has given white time to play <22.Qh8+ Ke7 23.Qxg7>, which works now because the rook is defended. Now white threatens to mate on f7, which forces <23...Rf8> (black loses quickly in all variations if he doesn't defend f7).
Now I spent a lot of time analyzing 24.Rh7 Qe8... There is a lot of stuff happening and I haven't come to conclusions about this.
I eventually realized that the most accurate way to win swiftly is <24.Rhh6 >. Now the obvious threat is 25.Re6+ Kd7 26.Rxd6+, with a winning skewer. It turns out there is no defence:
24...Ke8 25.Re6+ fxe6 (other moves lose the queen for rook) 26.Rxe6+ Qe7 27.Qxe7#
24...Bc8 (guarding e6) and now 25.Rxd6 Qxd6 (25...Qc7 26.Qxe5+ Be6 27.Rgxe6+ fxe6 28.Qxe6#) 26.Rxd6 with a winning material advantage (if 26...Kxd6 27.Qxf8 ).
24...Qc7 25.Rxd6 (threatening 26.Rge6#) 25...Bc8 with a transposition to the previous mating line 26.Qxe5+ (25...Qxd6 also loses in similar fashion to the previous line).
24...Qc8 25.Rd6+ Kd7 (25...Qxe6 26.Rxe6+ Kxe6 27.Rxf8 ) 26.Rxd6+ Kc7 27.Qxe5 , when black cannot effectively meet the threatened 28.Rc6++, which will lead to mate or winning material advantage.
|Jan-18-08|| ||wals: Analysis by Fritz 11: depth 19/42 time 12.21|
1. (7.10): 17...Qd8xf6 18.Qf5-h7+ Kg8-f8 19.Ng5-e4 Re8-e6 20.Ne4xf6 Re6xf6 21.f2-f4 d7-d6 22.Qh7-h8+ Kf8-e7 23.Qh8xg7 Rf6-g6 24.Qg7-h7 Ra8-d8 25.h4-h5 Rg6-f6 26.Qh7-g7 Nc6-b4 27.f4xe5 Nb4xa2+
2. (#16): 17...h6xg5 18.h4xg5 Nc6-d4 19.Qf5-h3 Kg8-f8 20.Bb2-a3+ d7-d6 21.Rf6xd6 Nd4xb3+ 22.a2xb3 Qd8xg5 23.Rd6xb6+
|Jan-18-08|| ||bakit: Granpmaster and NateDawg... how do you counter 16.Qf5 hxg5 17.hxg5 Be4 18.Qh3 Nh7 would give black the defense. so why the 16.Qf5 still? thanks again.|
|Jan-19-08|| ||Grampmaster: <bakit: Grampmaster and NateDawg...how do you counter 16.Qf5 hxg5 17.hxg5 Be4 18.Qh3 Nh7 would give black the defense?>|
I'd play 19.f3 Bf5 20.g4 then Bxg4 loses to 21.Qxh7# or if 20...Bg6 then 21.Rxg6 followed by 22.Qxh7#
Interesting position wasn't it?
|Jan-19-08|| ||NateDawg: <bakit> 16. ♕f5 hxg5 17. hxg5 ♗e4 18. ♕h3 ♘h7 and 19. ♗d3! wins by removing the knight's defender.|
click for larger view
19...♗xd3 20. ♖xd3 d6 21. ♕xh7+ ♔f8 22. ♗a3 ♖e6 23. ♕e4!, and White is threatening 24. ♕xa8 and 24. ♖h8+.
|Jan-26-08|| ||Fourpointo: <Ne4 is not possible because Bxe4.>|
Who said anything about Ne4? I'm talking 17. Qh7.
|Feb-04-08|| ||Eyal: A few months after this game someone tried again to play that dubious line for Black (deviating on move 13), this time against Carlsen's second - and it turned out very badly for him as well (P H Nielsen vs S Collas, 2005).|
|May-21-08|| ||Duque Roquero: <Fourpointo: So what was 16. Qf5 for? Why not just 16. Rxf6?> As <<fm avari viraf>> pointed out, “Qxf6 [ if ...gxf6 then White mates in 2 moves ] 18.Qh7+ Kf8 19.Ba3+ d6 20.Ne4 & Black will either have to part his Queen or get mated”. This last move (Ne4) is not possible before 16. … Nc6 which obstructed the black bishop. I think that’s why 16. Rxf6 can’t work.|
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