< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Sep-15-10|| ||Patriot: I chose 27.Nxf7 and saw that 27...Kxf7 28.Bxe6+ or 28.Qh5+ look winning. I looked at both for a short while and thought 28.Qh5+ "might" be better but was not completely sure.|
I'm surprised more kibitzer's did not weight out which was better, 28.Bxe6+ or 28.Qh5+, but chose the game move. Was the difference that obvious or did you post only what you thought was best?
|Sep-15-10|| ||castle dweller: Hey Once - very entertaining!! Wish I could write like that.|
|Sep-15-10|| ||desiobu: Saw the game line up to 30. Qh7. I think 30...Nc2 is interesting but Larsen deals with that well. Somebody also suggested 31. Re4 which looked good to me as well.|
|Sep-15-10|| ||NARC: I failed because I thought Qh5 was too slow. I never thought that the
king’s bishop and the queen could generate enough threats without
support from another minor piece.|
|Sep-15-10|| ||johnlspouge: < <Patriot> wrote: [snip] I'm surprised more kibitzer's did not weight out which was better, 28.Bxe6+ or 28.Qh5+, but chose the game move. Was the difference that obvious or did you post only what you thought was best? >|
Thanks, <Patriot> ;>)
|Sep-15-10|| ||sfm: Noticed last week that CG brought a couple of Larsen-games, and today I saw games by him in both the GOTD and the puzzle. "Great" I thought, but then I started worrying. Is there an occasion?
Worries were confirmed. He is gone. OK, we die.
Larsen was the danish version of Fisher - the self-made man, rising like a rocket out of a not-so-strong country (Denmark didn't have a single grandmaster at the time).
He won 25 GM tournaments over time. If not a record it must be close.
I met him a single time in a simul in our chess club. He started with a small speech. He was always a great entertainer, and ditto writer, with a sharp wit.
For us young chessplayers he was a hero and I am truly sad he is gone.
|Sep-15-10|| ||kevin86: I started the combination-but couldn't finish it. The knight sac is obvious.|
|Sep-15-10|| ||jackpawn: I'm curious (don't know why), those of you that met Larsen, did he speak with a Danish accent? I know he spoke several languages.|
|Sep-15-10|| ||M.Hassan: <patriot: I'm surprised more kibitzers did not weigh out which was better, 28.Bxe6+ or 28.Qh5+>|
I chose Bxe6+ to make the number of pieces attacking the Black camp to 3 (Q,R&B)to have more chances of success. Qh5+ does not produce good tempo because:
And attack of White stalls.
Am I missing something?
|Sep-15-10|| ||Patriot: <M.Hassan> After 28.Qh5+ Kg8, 29.Rxe6 threatens not only the queen but also 30.Re8#.|
|Sep-15-10|| ||desiobu: 28. Bxe6+ is pretty forcing; black has only 28...Kf8 (28...Kg6 29. Qe4+; 28...Ke7 or Ke8 29. Bd5+) and you can still get in Qh5 with tempo. Also as <M.Hassan> points out the B starts hitting f7 & g8 right away.|
28. Qh5+ Ke7 29. Rxe6+ Qxe6 30. Bxe6 Kxe6 31. Qe2+ and Qe4 is probably just as good in the end but I think it takes some technique to finish.
|Sep-15-10|| ||desiobu: I meant 32. Qc4|
|Sep-15-10|| ||M.Hassan: <patriot:29.Rxe6 threatens.....>
Right you are! I was going on the line with 29.Bxe6+ that there is no attack against the Black Queen.
I agree 28.Qh5+ also is detrimental. Thanks for your post|
|Sep-15-10|| ||wals: Three up.
(+1.81):25...Qd6, wasn't a smart move by Black.
Analysis by Rybka 4 x64: depth 18: time 15 mmin:
1. (1.26): 25...Bd6 26.Ra1 Bc7 27.g3 Qf5 28.Nh4 Qg5 29.Qe4 Qd8 30.Nf3 Nd5 31.Ne5 Bb6 32.Bxd5 Qxd5 33.Qxd5 exd5 34.Nc6 Kf8 35.Kg2 Re8 36.Kf3 Rc8 37.Ra6 Rc7 38.Kf4 f6 39.Kf5 Kf7 40.Nd8+
The blunder by Black,
depth 19: time 6 min:
1. (1.92): 26...Nd5 27.Ra1 Nc7 28.Qh5 Qxd4 29.Qxf7+ Kh8 30.Re1 Bd6 31.Qh5 Bxe5 32.Qxe5 Qxe5 33.Rxe5 g6 34.Rc5 Nd5 35.Bxd5 exd5 36.Rxd5 Rc8 37.Kf1 Rc7 38.Ke2 Kg7 39.Kd3 Kf6 40.Ke4 Re7+ 41.Kf4 Re2
(+7.61):28...Kf8 didn't help,
Kg6, +4.63, would have been of little assistance.
Black quit move 36...Qd6 +8.27.
|Sep-15-10|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: <<johnlspouge:> <Patriot> wrote: [snip] I'm surprised more kibitzer's did not weight out which was better, 28.Bxe6+ or 28.Qh5+, but chose the game move. Was the difference that obvious or did you post only what you thought was best? >
Thanks, <Patriot> ;>|
Before I made my first post, I initially favored 28.Qh5+, seeing clear wins against all defenses except 28... Ke7. I couldn't see anything concrete for white after 29.Bxe6 Rf8 (Qxe6? 30.Qc5+ picks up the knight) nor after 29.Rxe6+ Qxe6 30.Bxe6 Kxe6. White gets Q+3 pawns for R+N+B, not clear IMO, so I'm still puzzled by Toga's evaluation and will need an engine to sort it out. It's quite possible that Toga overvalues the white kingside 2 pawn majority, which is hard to mobilize. I haven't seen another post that addresses this this yet.
<Daavid2009> In my first attempt against Crafty, I followed your link without reading the rest of your post and chose 31.Re4 (perhaps subconsciously influenced by your first diagram) and I ended with a draw on the first attempt. Later, I found that 31.Re3! followed by 32.Qe4 makes it much easier.
As for the 28.Qh5+ line, I had no success against Crafty.
|Sep-15-10|| ||eternaloptimist: it took me ~7-8 minutes to solve this puzzle. i played every move that he played in the combination except the last move (32.♖xc2). I chose 32.♙d5 instead, but that still wins because I can play 33.Rxc2. I think this puzzle should have been classified as medium instead of medium/easy. It's very sad that 1 of the legends of the chessboard has passed away, but we still have larsen's games to remember him by.|
|Sep-15-10|| ||dzechiel: <Patriot: I'm surprised more kibitzer's did not weight out which was better, 28.Bxe6+ or 28.Qh5+, but chose the game move. Was the difference that obvious or did you post only what you thought was best?>|
For me 28 Bxe6+ seemed more clear cut. I'm sure the computer easily sees the lines evaluating about equally, but taking with the bishop then moving the queen are both very forcing in that order (check, then the mate threat). The other order (28 Qh5+ Kg8 29 Rxe6) is also bad for black, but also means that white has to analyze more lines, and risk taking a wrong turn in the process.
|Sep-15-10|| ||Patriot: <johnlspouge> Hey John! You must have posted while I was writing my own. It's great to see that Toga agreed with my thoughts on the 28.Qh5+ line. I hope everything is going well.|
<M.Hassan>, <CHESSTTCAMPS>: Thanks for your comments. I didn't calculate everything out and prove which line was better, but it was just an observation that most kibitzer's that solved the puzzle in detail never mentioned the 28.Qh5+ line as a possibility, which kind of struck me as odd. It's as if kibitzer's are saying 28.Qh5+ is not even worth looking at.
|Sep-15-10|| ||johnlspouge: < <CHESSTTCAMPS> wrote: [snip] It's quite possible that Toga overvalues the white kingside 2 pawn majority, which is hard to mobilize. I haven't seen another post that addresses this this yet. >|
I am lazy (read: I have something obsessing me), so all I can offer is Toga's analysis up to the last constant move over the last 4 plies. I hope it is enough for you to see the win.
[plies 18/61 time 12:04 value +3.78]
28...Ke7 29.Rxe6+ Qxe6 30.Bxe6 Kxe6 31.Qe2+ Kd7 32.Qg4+ Kc7
33.Qf4+ Kb7 34.Qe4+ Kb8 35.Qe8+ Kb7 36.Qd7+ Kb6 37.Qd6+ Kxb5
38.Qc5+ Ka6 39.Qxb4 Rd8 40.Qc4+ Kb7 41.d5
Incidentally, I <already> knew that everyone that responded to my implicit query had their reasons for choosing 30.Bxe6. It's the people who <don't> post their analysis that I wonder about :)
|Sep-15-10|| ||Patriot: <dzechiel> What you said makes perfect sense. Whenever a candidate is more clear cut (i.e. a "human move") it is usually superior to a "computer move" that can be proven as best through complex analysis. I'll take a human move anyday that is winning--without complications--over a complicated computer move that is "best".|
The only thing about this position is that it was not as clear to me which was better after minimal analysis.
|Sep-15-10|| ||DarthStapler: I at least considered the first two moves but I didn't find the followup|
|Sep-15-10|| ||wals: As Kxf7 was played Rybka gives it to Qh5.
Analysis by Rybka 4 x64: depth 21: time 11 min:
1. (4.77): 27...Kxf7 28.Qh5+ Ke7 29.Rxe6+ Qxe6 30.Bxe6 Kxe6 31.Qe2+ Kd7 32.Qg4+ Kc7 33.Qf4+ Kc8 34.Qf5+ Kb7 35.Qd7+ Kb6 36.Qd6+ Kxb5 37.Qc5+ Ka6
2. (8.51): 27...Qd7 28.Bxe6 Re8 29.Nd8+ Rxe6 30.Qxe6+ Qxe6 31.Rxe6 h5 32.Re8+ Kh7 33.Nc6 Nd5 34.Nxa7 Kg6 35.Nc8 Kf7 36.Nd6+ Kg6 37.Re6 Kg5 38.b6 Nxb6 39.Nf7+ Kf5 40.Rxb6 Ke4 41.Rb5 Kxd4 42.Rxh5 Kc3
|Sep-15-10|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: <<Johnlspouge> ...hope it is enough for you to see the win....
28...Ke7 29.Rxe6+ Qxe6 30.Bxe6 Kxe6 31.Qe2+ Kd7 32.Qg4+ Kc7 33.Qf4+ Kb7 34.Qe4+ Kb8 35.Qe8+ Kb7 36.Qd7+ Kb6 37.Qd6+... >
Thanks, that does it. As I recall, I got it to 32.Qg4+ against Crafty, but missed the sequence to win the knight. I should have reasoned that with the Ra8 on a bad square, just keep checking and good things will happen. |
Spending a tempo to pick off a pawn is a mistake.
|Sep-16-10|| ||vanilla icecream: <M.HASSAN>
...:" 29.Bxe6+ Kh8
And attack of White stalls.
Am I missing something?"
30. Bf5 looks pretty dangerous to me.
|Sep-16-10|| ||vanilla icecream: <CHESSTTCAMPS> :" nor after 29.Rxe6+ Qxe6 30.Bxe6 Kxe6. White gets Q+3 pawns for R+N+B, not clear IMO"
what if 30. Qc5. this move will cost black either the knight, bishop or rook, i think.|
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