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Mar-03-12
 | | maxi: Is the best move in a given position the one that the computer suggests? What is the best move? What can you define as the best move? Chess is finite game. The number of moves of any game is finite. So you can, in principle, check out for yourself if a given move can force a win or not. If the position is such that there is no way to force a win, then there is no intrinsic advantage to the move the computer suggests. (Remember the computer evaluates on the basis of an evaluation function that is defined by the programmer, a man. Its parametrization comes from our chess lore and the practical experience programming chess engines the programmer may have.) If the position is such that it is possible to force a win, then the question becomes this: is the line chosen by the human master a winning one? If it isn't then it is a bad move, a terrible move. If it still wins, even if it isn't the shortest, then there is no objective reason to put it down. The question becomes one of esthetics, because human being have this knack for beauty. The best move becomes the most beautiful one, or, at least, the most interesting one. |
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Mar-04-12
 | | AylerKupp: <maxi> Good and difficult questions to answer, my answers being somewhat vague and subjective, and raising some philosophical issues. My answer to your first question is "Not Necessarily". A lot depends on the chess engine used, the depth that it was allowed to search, and the "cleverness" of the engine's heuristics in selecting which branches of the search tree it searches. And, regardless of the circumstances, any engine is quite capable of making mistakes. Chess engines are different and some are simply better than others in evaluating the position resulting from the candidate moves they investigate. All things being equal, the deeper an engine is allowed to search the more confident we should be that it will find the "best" move since it will have looked at more potential positions. But all things are never equal. No chess engine, regardless of how powerful a computer it runs in, can look at all the moves in its search tree at the depth required to establish confidence in its evaluation in a reasonable amount of time. So engines restrict (prune) the branches of the search tree that they look at in depth according to some heuristics (a.k.a. "guesses"). The more aggressive an engine prunes its search tree, the deeper it can search in the same amount of time (and therefore increase our confidence in its final evaluation of the position). But at the same time it increases the chances the branch of their search tree that contains the "best" move will not be looked at, so the quality of its search depends on the quality of its "guesses". So search engine developers must perform a number of tradeoffs and determine what approaches work best in the majority of positions. Oh, yes, the majority of positions. Chess engines currently tend to excel in tactically complex open and semi-open positions, and they tend to do less well in strategically complex closed positions and endgames. To make it even harder to generalize, if two engines are used to analyze a position, the first one might find the "best" move and the second one may not. And, if they are given a different position to analyze, the second engine may find the "best" move and the first one may not. So whenever possible, I try to analyze a position using at least 3 different engines, and average their evaluations to reduce one engine's possible evaluation bias. To try to answer your second and third questions, IMO the "best" move is the one that will cause the player on the move to reach the position's most likely conclusion in the smallest number of moves. I phrased my answer that way because as you pointed out in some positions a win can be demonstrated, in some positions a win is likely but not capable of being demonstrated, and some positions are just dead drawn and it's not reasonable to downgrade a human or a computer for their inability to find a winning move in that position, assuming equally good play from their opponent. But I'm not really satisfied with that definition myself. If two moves give the same result, but one of the moves causes that result to be delayed one or more moves, is it proper to consider one move "better" than the other? After all, the end result was the same. And, if you enjoy making your opponent suffer (yes, there are some chess-playing sadists out there), you might even be able to argue that the move that prolongs the inevitable result the longest is the "best" move. As you also pointed out the criteria for determining the "best" move can also include esthetics And as <Once> pointed out, the criteria can also include practicality. So Morozevich's 32...0-0-0 was arguably better practically than 32...d2 even though the latter may have lead to a win in a smaller number of moves. Not implying at all that Morozevich might have a sadistic streak in him; no, not at all. He was just being practical. And what about a player who in a lost position plays a move that leads to complications that are the most likely to lead his opponent astray even though it's not the "best" move in the sense that the "best" move would delay the otherwise inevitable loss the longest (the flip side of my definition of "best" move)? Kind of like the horizon effect affecting chess engines. And what if as a result of that less than "best" move one's opponent goes astray and a certain loss is transformed into a draw or even a win? Who would then argue that the move actually played wasn't "better" than the objectively "best" move? Sorry for my ramblings but as I said in the beginning, there are no easy answers to your good questions. And I am not known for my brevity. |
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Mar-04-12 | | Once: I'm not known for my brevity either! But I'll try... There is more than one game of chess. First and (probably) foremost there is the struggle. Two people over the board trying to beat each other. And here the best move is the one that wins. That might not be the absolute best move in theoretical terms. But chess is a struggle, a fight, a sport. If you are winning, keep it simple. If you are losing, look for ways to complicate. And don't care too much about the "best" move. Then we have chess as art or science. Writing books, kibitzing, theorising. And here the "best" move does become important. There is no point in adjusting your play to suit your opponent when there is no opponent. |
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Mar-04-12 | | King Death: <Once> The phrase "Monday morning quarterback(s)" isn't mine, it's a common one over here. |
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Mar-04-12 | | Once: First time I'd heard it, and very apt it is too. |
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Mar-04-12
 | | maxi: <AylerKupp> Nice long exposition... I basically agree with all you say. My aim here is not so much to theoretize about chess engines but to show the dangers of trusting them too much. Just because some Monday morning expert gives a long line (actually from an engine) that does not mean he understands what he is quoting (what I called "piece play" before). If you don't understand the reasons for a line then your chess ain't improving that much. |
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Apr-04-12 | | BigEasy1203: If a computer can analyze a game and find a line that changes the outcome ... in those cases, I think it can be important and helpful. Both players could study the analysis and maybe improve their overall game by learning from it. However, in situations like this, I don't see the point. A win is a win. Does anyone really care if there's a mate in 3 and it's determined that it could have been a mate in 2? |
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May-19-13 | | 4play: a5!!.. Super awesome game |
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Aug-18-23
 | | plang: 5 Nbd2 is not as popular as 5 g3 and 5 a3. Already 7..Be7 was new; 7..Be6 had been played twice previously. Morozovich was critical of 13 Bf4?! recommending instead 13 g4!..Ng7 14 Bd2..Ne6 15 0-0-0 followed by e3 with a very strong position for White. After 21 e3? the game favors Black; 21 0-0-0 would have still been approximately equal. |
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May-10-25 | | mel gibson: I didn't see that.
Stockfish 17 says:
28. .. Ne4
(28. .. Ne4 (1. ... Ne4 2.Bxe7 Nxf2 3.Bb4 0-0-0 4.Re1 d2 5.Qxf2 d1Q 6.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 7.Kg2 Qxf2+ 8.Kxf2 Rxh1 9.Nf8 Rh2+
10.Kf3 Rxb2 11.e6 fxe6 12.Bc3 Rc2 13.Bh8 Nd2+ 14.Kf4 b5) +5.33/45 650) score for Black +5.33 depth 45. |
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May-10-25 | | King.Arthur.Brazil: The king thought about this line, but seems unreal that W will fall in such a trap: 28...Ne4 29. Bxe7 Kxe7 30. Nf6 Nbc5 31. Nxe4 Nxe4 32. Bg2 Rh8 33. Bh1 Qxd1+ 34. Qxd1 Rxh1+ 35. Kxh1 Nxf2+ 36. Kg2 Nxd1. Other way (more plausible) is 28...Nd2 29. Qg4 Nde4 30. Bxe4 Nxe4 31. Bxe7 Kxe7 32. Rf1 d2 33. Qd1 Qd3 34. Kg2 Rh8 35. Nf6 Nxf6 36. exf6+ Kxf6 37. f3 Qxe3 38. Rf2 Rd8 and W has little chances. E.G. 39. g4 (or similar) Qe1 40. Rf1 Re8 41. Kg1 Re2 42. Kh1 Qh4+ 43. Kg1 Qh2#. |
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May-10-25 | | King.Arthur.Brazil: In the final position: 35. Be4 d2 36. Ke2 Rxh7 37. Bc2 Rh2+ 38. Kd3 d1=Q+ 39. Bxd1 Rd2+ 40. Kc3 Rxd1... |
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May-10-25 | | Walter Glattke: 28.-Nd2 29.Qg4 Nce4 30.Bxe4 Nxe4 31.Rf1 Nxg5 32.Nxg5 Bxg5 33.Qxg5 d2 34.Qg4 = /28.-Nc1 29.Bxe7 Ne2+ 30.Kh2 Qxd1 31.Bxc5 Qg1+ 32.Kh3 Qc1 33.Nf6+ Kd8 -+ |
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May-10-25 | | murkia: Brilliant discussion on the use of computer analysis and Chess from 2012 by (Once) and others too many to mention. It's a pity that kibitzing has become so much less interesting now since Stockfish became so smart. Chess is a very particular case of AI(or expert systems as we used to call them) and is different from the current craze for generative AI which can very often dish up some absolute nonsense. I'll give an example. I googled a question a while back about the record price for gold and it's current price and got back absolute rubbish. This is the answer I got today to the same question: The all-time high for gold price was around £1,708.57 per ounce, recorded on March 8, 2024. Today, May 10, 2025, the gold price is fluctuating around £2,508.55 per ounce. Still serving up the same old garbage.
Moral: The jury's still out on so called AI.
Anyway many thanks Chessgames for a wonderful website and may it continue to entertain and educate us for many years to come. BTW I've just had my best week by far on POTD having flubbed (thanks(An Englishman!)) only once so far. |
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May-10-25 | | mel gibson: < murkia: It's a pity that kibitzing has become so much less interesting now since Stockfish became so smart.> I like the Stockfish analysis.
After all - what does it really matter what I might say?
It could be nonsense so SF can add weight to what anyone says -
even a grandmaster. |
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May-10-25
 | | chrisowen: Go z it was pick it was faith it was v dally it was womb mins it was cj re it was q Ne4 it was ghoul it was adrift nip do it was acb mib it was coffin it was abe it was leeway it was dub it was chi bugged it was Ne4 c it was web x |
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May-10-25
 | | chrisowen: Buck og it e4 as x |
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May-10-25
 | | chrisowen: hope the shade x |
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May-10-25 | | King.Arthur.Brazil: <Murkia><Mel Gibson> Yesterday after post, I saw also the long talking and translate everything to my natural language, to unearth some words meaning and become surprise of such interesting and high level debate on computers in our chess world. Doing so, I really wanted to add something: that all we here are not young guys anymore. Many just left us, like our friend Brenin (may I say, RIP?), just to remember a strong chess analyzer (and player) out here. Computers changed all in our life. In my Engineering case, one day I said to a manager on my area, during a job interview, in 1983, that nearly soon, drawing would not be made by designers at drawing boards, instead with mouse and computers. This forecast became laugh and despise about me on him and he concluded that I was mad: "that never will happen!" Twenty years passed, I've to close doors of my office, because eventhough I have goodname, several clientes, services and so on, we have suddenly no steel for our steel structures, since our government (it was 2003 with Lula, who else?) have set out steel industries to great exportations and inside here, we had not steel to continue our designs. More than 25 companies closed doors, many factories throw their employers out... only later, on 2008 we would know that the main reason for this, was the supercharged prices of concrete in public construtions which becomes the called "big monthly" scandall, discovered by the famous car-wash investigation. Yes, they premeditated everything. By that prices, steel could be used instead of concrete, so they throw overseas this kind of steel, for the big engineering companies, partners of this assalt to Brazilian finances, could rise their prices without any problem. Trying to survive, I catch a job as designer in one yet surviving office, who works to the steel producers and who I find there? Yes again, the same manager, to who I asked: "well, I thought that you still work with drawing board". He remembered me and didn't laugh anymore, the designing room was plenty of computers and no board. I always win easily the common computers with the first Chess games programs, until I run Chessmaster. I had to work my skill, it was not so easy to win some of his simulated players. When after years I could win at least once every person created by the program and get on the top of the piramyd, I begin to challenge playing against simulated masters (Reti, Capablanca, Smyslov, Flohr...). It was very very uneasy to say the less. I never did win a game against the own program Chessmaster and never used it on my analyzes or in my turn of play. But, the CD became damaged and the program doesn't run anymore. Some games I showed like comments, on KAB page of games. I doubt that our sons (among many people) or family members will ever dedicate their minds to play our loved Chess, will undestand why we lose time here and why we fill so glad to do so. Everyday that pass, many seem to be less interessed in fight against the machine on a Chessboard. My son preferres eletronic games. I feel very glad to be here in CG and Fishouse (as I jokking call this software) help us to see a computer evaluation on some game position, maybe avoiding some particular discordances or preferences on a given case. Hope, that when I no longer post, you my friends remember these goodtimes and thank you so much for everything. |
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May-10-25 | | mel gibson: Hi King.Arthur.Brazil,
thanks for your comments.
I had a lot of fun in the 1980s and 1990s
playing against computers.
I remember programs like der bringer and Chessmaster.
Even today I like to play Chess Titans -
the Microsoft program - and I can beat it on its highest level 10.
The old programs then didn't understand end games very well so if you could survive till then
they were possible to beat. Chess Titans has a rating of maybe 1800?
Those old programs would run on an old 80286 CPU.Nowadays with Stockfish and 8 core CPUs
and 20 Gigs or more of memory allocated
it's impossible to win - even for grandmasters.
The CPU can consider billions of board positions in 5 minutes.
Now - all the grandmasters have their computer resource to check new openings out and they do -
so chess has been changed forever for anyone who does some homework on openings. For this website -
what is surprising is that the old masters games
we solve here show us how good they were -
as their moves usually agree with the computer. |
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May-10-25 | | murkia: Hi Mel, < murkia: It's a pity that kibitzing has become so much less interesting now since Stockfish became so smart.> CG's own engine facility is quite powerful, is free to use and generally agrees with your SF analyses which uses much more powerful hardware and unlimited time. I was just remarking on the splendid insights back in 2012 on the shortcomings of computer analysis in general. SF has no idea of time constraints and the mental states of the players concerned and just delivers a cold, hard analysis. Why this has stopped lengthy kibitzing is beyond me but I must say that like King Arthur I do miss people like Brenin and <agb2004>? and many more before them who have sadly disappeared, hopefully not due to RIP. |
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May-10-25
 | | Sally Simpson: Interesting observations, points of view and opinions can still be discussed. Computers have killed off the art of interesting and speculative analysis and fantasy variations.
These days an author dare not suggest an alternative without running it through a machine because they know it's the first thing an interested reader would do. But we can still jump in and give reasons as to why the human played a move not suggested by S.F.
They did not see it. Yes it can be as obvious as that.
Saw it but misanalysed it, had no time to look at it fully, saw a safer win, needed a win so took a risk,set a trap, went for complications, never had the nerve to play it because their opponent had a much higher rating than theirs...In fact we fill in all the gaps that S.F. creates. <Mel>
"After all - what does it really matter what I might say? It could be nonsense " Of course it matters. What people say keeps the forums ticking over. I think you will find a lot of people will be interested in a genuine question as to why a move was played. There are some good players here, you will get some good answers And as for 'nonsense' Go for it. Based on human v human play and what I think is plausible I have often had a fantasy line squashed. No big deal. I'm happy that I can still spot the occasional shot and that someone took the time to look at it. For instance. here;
 click for larger viewI can see me going for 15.Bd7+ Kxd7 (forced) 16. 0-0-0 with e3 ideas. Black position looks hard to play, White easier, (something a machine cannot understand). I'm a piece down and may have to shed another after e3 because the f4 Bishop looks short of squares but Black's c8 Bishop and a8 Rook are out of play, my King is safe and the Black King is a sitting duck. (optimism is something else a computer lacks.)
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May-11-25 | | mel gibson: <Sally Simpson: Of course it matters. What people say keeps the forums ticking over.> But times have changed.
A whimsical move that looks OK might prove invalid say 4 moves later when the computer is asked.
I notice that the youtuber Agadmator is always referring to the engine, to back up what he is saying.
Still - I like the comments here too.
The engine often chooses a move that humans don't understand
and is something we wouldn't play.
Example - it can still win a game after doubling many pawns -
we wouldn't normally do that. |
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May-11-25
 | | Sally Simpson: <Hi Mel>
If people start worrying what a computer will say about their suggestion then we might as well
give up. Sometimes a plausible move not considered by a computer can lead to interesting play and whimsy proposals add to the fun. On the whole human v human games are decided by blunders so iffy suggestions by people who are actually thinking on their own two feet are part of the game.
I and I'm sure others have never think any less of someone coming up with an idea that has a hole in it.
Even if a computer says it is wrong we can see where they are coming from and in some cases defend their choice by agreeing it is a plausible move (and be glad they posted it first because they were just about too. 😊) Doubled Pawns:
Personally I never bothered about having a doubled pawn. It means I have a half open file for a Rook to do things. Meanwhile my opponent will switch into 'get the ending mode' and walk into a two move trap. One thing we can never accuse a modern computer of is being dogmatic. They have opened up a few eyes with their total disregard of pawn structures and King safety.
Especially the latter, if it does not end in mate then grabbing material whilst walking their King across the board or throwing up their King pawn cover does not matter. Without a doubt they have improved the game and making people a bit suspicious of the things the great and the good told us to avoid. |
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May-12-25 | | mel gibson: <Sally Simpson. They have opened up a few eyes with their total disregard of pawn structures and King safety.> But that is not something a human can always do
as it requires too much time to analyse in a real OTB game.
Looking for a one in a billion exception to the
accepted strategy is actually wrong for a human -
so the computer's choice cannot always be accepted.
In some ways - chess is gambling with the infinite. |
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