< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Oct-08-08|| ||zb2cr: I missed this one. The key move is 34. ... f4!, and I couldn't get that one. Going to be a long week.|
|Oct-08-08|| ||YetAnotherAmateur: <moi> 2 problems I see with your analysis:
First, we can tell from the puzzle that white cannot take the bishop, because it leads to mate in 3. I'd rather take a lost piece than a mate any day of the week.|
Second, in your line 34. c5 is an obvious mistake due to the loss of the pinned bishop, but white can get out of trouble with Qc2, Qe2, or Rb3 on move 34, because Rd8 reduces the pressure on e1.
|Oct-08-08|| ||johnlspouge: Wednesday (Medium/Easy)
Englisch vs Schiffers, 1887 (32...?)
Black to play and win.
Material: Even. B for N. The White Kg1 has 1 legal move. Black has a battery Re8 and Qe5 on the e-file, and another battery Qe5 and Bd4 on the a1-h8 diagonal. The Black Bc8 requires activation, but there might be enough local superiority and control of the dark squares on the White K-side to start a sacrificial attack without Bc8.
Candidates (32…): Bxf2+
32…Bxf2+ 33.Kxf2 [Kh1 drops a P] Qd4+
If White interposes, he loses at least a P:
(1) 34.Ne3 Qxe3+
White cannot run with the K:
(2) 34.Kg3 f4+ 35.Kf3 [Kh4 Qf6#] Bg4#
(3) 34.Kf3 f4 (threatening 35…Bg4# or 35…Bg4+ 36…Bxd1)
(3.1) 35.Bf5 Re3+ 36.Kf2 [Nxe3 Qxe3#] Rd3+
picks up at least Q+B for R+B.
(3.2) 35.h3 Re3+ 36.Kf2 [Nxe3 Qxe3#] Rxd3+
picks up at least Q+B for R+B.
|Oct-08-08|| ||The Rocket: |
this is not a puzzle at all! There is only a win of a pawn! puzzles should only be shown when blacks responses are forced not when the opponent blunders like this game.... its a bacic rule that you always calculate pressuming that your opponent plays the optimal moves. This is because even if they are no masters they could by coincidence play the best response to your combination.
|Oct-08-08|| ||Honza Cervenka: <33. Kh1>
Of course, this is objectively better than 33. Kxf2 but the position is still pretty hopeless for white. After 33...Qf4 with Re8-e1 in the air black has sound extra Pawn AND compensation as Tartakower liked to say. As white I would have probably resigned there.
|Oct-08-08|| ||moi: <hedgeh0g> Yes, I noticed afterwards I had been to enthousiastic and forgot to check other easy lines, as you pointed out.|
Sorry, I hoped so much to find a clear material advantage for black...
|Oct-08-08|| ||chrisowen: Neglect your kingside, i.e. Berthold plays 14.Nh4 and you wil neglect your game. Here white is looking a bit vacant and black has enough time for e5. Obviously Emmanuel Schiffers scored 32.Qd1 as an everyday kind of mistake, it is needed for protecting f2. After the king grabs the DSB the key move in this English/ Schiffers match is 34..f4. Isnt it illuminating.|
|Oct-08-08|| ||dzechiel: <Aware> and <agb2002>, the first time I looked at this, I thought to myself, "Hmm..., the king escapes back to the square the knight just vacated." But by the time I was writing it up, I thought, "Hey, 34...Qxe3 is mate!" This getting old sucks. Anyway, thanks for pointing this out.|
|Oct-08-08|| ||beenthere240: <the rocket> Given the position, do you think there's a better move than 32...Bxf2+? Would you say, hmmm, that move only wins a pawn against best play, so I'd better do something that accomplishes nothing at all. Also as others have pointed out, moving the bishop with tempo from the d4 square allows a pin attack in the d file.|
|Oct-08-08|| ||kevin86: I missed this one-I saw that after 32...♗f2+ 33 ♔xf2 ♕e3 is not mate because of the knight. Black uses the knight as a self-block for white and with 33...♕d4+ forces the king to f3.|
|Oct-08-08|| ||johnlspouge: < <dzechiel> wrote: <Aware> and <agb2002>, the first time I looked at this, I thought to myself, "Hmm..., the king escapes back to the square the knight just vacated." But by the time I was writing it up, I thought, "Hey, 34...Qxe3 is mate!">|
Initially, I thought "34...Qxe3 is mate", and only then caught the error. It is certainly curious that human hardware tends to certain characteristic errors.
|Oct-08-08|| ||Antonius Blok: I didn't found the last move.
The killing f4 !!
|Oct-08-08|| ||Samagonka: I give myself a pat on the back for going up to move 34, but just missed f4!|
|Oct-08-08|| ||The Rocket: "Given the position, do you think there's a better move than 32...Bxf2+? Would you say, hmmm, that move only wins a pawn against best play, so I'd better do something that accomplishes nothing at all."|
of course not I saw I saw the bishop move and knew white was dead if he accepted it so I was searching a long time for something else thats what annyoyed me.
|Oct-08-08|| ||karnak64: Black's DSB makes quite an Odyssey in this game, yes?|
|Oct-08-08|| ||Woody Wood Pusher: Quite difficult for a Wednesday..I saw 32..Bxf2+ and the various mating lines if it is accepted.|
33.Kh1 still leaves black some work to do IMO, although he does have an extra pawn and better position overall.
What is the best continuation?
33..Qc3 34.Qf3,Bd4 35.Qg3,Kh7 36.Rd1 does not seem conclusive ( )
33..Qd4 doesn't promise anything immediately either and the back rank seems to hold even when the rook reaches e1.
Anybody tried Fritz on this position after 33.Kh1?
|Oct-08-08|| ||Kasputin: Material is even. It looks like black has to find a way to get at the white king. Pushing the black pawns might work, but the following sacrifice also looks promising:|
Of course white does not have to take the bishop, but moving Kh1 makes no sense. Black simply wins a pawn with the better position.
I think this is the right way to go because it forces the king out from behind the protective wall of pawn.
White now has a choice: a) 34. Kf3 or b) Kb3
a) 34. Kf3 f4
Black threatens ...Bg4 mate next move.
What else is there? Maybe 35. Bf5 and perhaps 35...Qd1; 36. Rxd1 Bxf5, which may be best for white in the end, even though it looks like black gets a nice advantage. In any case, 35. h3 looks like it effectively stops ...Bg4# and it should be noted that if black plays 35 ...g5 (i.e., with the idea of playing 36 ...g4+) that white has the nasty 36. Bh7+ with a discovered attack on the black queen. But black has something better:
Now if 36. Nxe3, then ...Qxe3# will follow. That being the case:
36. Kf2 Rxd3+
And this looks good enough to win. The sacrificed bishop is regained and black will win a queen for a rook in the next move or two. White may be hoping for something like 37 Ke1 or e2 so that after 37 ...Rxd1 38. Rxd1 that perhaps the queen will move away and white can play 39. Rd8+ in order to win the c8 bishop. But it looks like black can stop this by checking the white king with the queen either before capturing the white queen or after. It may also be that there is more than a material gain in this line - possibly mate can be forced, but I cannot see that.
b) 34. Kb3 f4+
Now if 35. Kf3 then ...Bg4#. Or if 35. Kh4 then ...Qf6#
Anyway, I have the feeling that there may be more here that I missed, but I think that I have at least seen a win in these lines. (I will now have to look to see). Perhaps objectively the best thing for white to do is to decline the initial bishop sacrifice but in practice that is a hard thing to do. I mean who would want to play the white position after 33. Kh1? I might just be better to take the bishop and hope that black misses something somewhere along the line.
|Oct-08-08|| ||Kasputin: A couple of extra comments. I did notice that white could play 34. Ne3 and in the interests of completeness perhaps I should have included a comment on it. (BTW, I saw that 34 ...Qxe3+ is not mate). Also I am glad that <TheaN> also thought about the whole 35. Bf5 line. (Apologies to others if you also included this in your comments - I only noticed it in <TheaN>'s notes.) Another time, I will have to look more closely at <TheaN>'s comments on that line.|
I am usually pretty hard on myself in terms of considering the question "did I solve this one"? In this case, despite a few exclusions, I think I did see enough of it to consider it "solved." In comparison, in last week's Monday puzzle, I saw the win of a rook but missed the mate. In that case, I do not consider that I solved the puzzle. Anyway, last week, after missing a Monday, I created a new rule for myself. If I miss a puzzle, then I stop for that week and start again the next Monday.
Since I think I got enough of this one, I will live on for another day.
|Oct-08-08|| ||TheTamale: Everyone please keep in mind that Chessgames.com is limited to mining real games, and real games might not always yield composition-perfect problems.|
|Oct-08-08|| ||The Rocket: "Of course white does not have to take the bishop,
But moving Kh1 makes no sense"
It makes more sense taking the bishop and stepping into forced mate????
|Oct-08-08|| ||Kasputin: <The Rocket> You may want to reserve laughing out loud until you can demostrate a forced mate. Where is it exactly?
My point is that white is stuck between a rock and a hard place. As I said, not taking the bishop is probably objectively the best. But it is also - objectively speaking - a lost position. Down a pawn with really no counterplay against an opponent that has the better position plus a pawn advantage. But this is a personal choice. Some people may want to play such a position. They are not wrong to do so.|
Taking the bishop is not wrong either. In fact, you are the best demonstration of this. You believe that there is a forced mate there, when in fact there is no forced mate. Mate could happen but white can avoid it as well. Avoiding it ends up costing more material then declining the bishop sacrifice.
So either way, it does not look good for white. My point is that white must decide how he or she wants to fall on the sword.
Please note, however, that I am imagining a real flesh and blood opponent, with whatever time they may have on their clock and whatever talents and imperfections they may possess. Against a computer - forget it - white's goose is cooked with either choice. So to me, imagining a real game situation, there is a legimate, practical choice to made here.
Today, I would go with taking the sacrifice in the hope - slim though it may be - that black somehow misses the best continuation. Another time I might feel differently. But at least I have tried to articulate my rationale in choosing one move over another. With the clock ticking and a practical choice to be made, this is how I would play things.
You on the other hand have posted quadruple question marks, had a hearty laught, but failed to analyse the position deeply enough to appreciate that in fact there is no forced mate here.
|Oct-08-08|| ||johnlspouge: < <Kasputin> wrote: [snip] there is no forced mate.>|
This statement is correct (according to Toga, just to be sure).
<My point is that white must decide how he or she wants to fall on the sword.>
Yes, how best to lose is a very personal decision and the most revealing test of a player's character. I am simply amazed how often a kibitzer will argue otherwise.
|Oct-08-08|| ||DarthStapler: I got the first two moves|
|Oct-08-08|| ||Ladolcevita: Why eat the bishop??|
|Oct-24-08|| ||patzer2: For the Oct 8, 2008 puzzle solution, White plays the mini-demolition of pawn structure combination 32...Bxf2+!, initiating a quick and decisive pursuit combination. |
In the final position, after 34...f4!, the dual threats of 35...Re3+ and 35...Bg4+ force White's resignation.
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