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Saint Amant / M.F. de B vs Paul Morphy
Consultation (1858), Paris FRA, Nov-??
Italian Game: Classical Variation. Greco Gambit Traditional Line (C54)  ·  0-1



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
May-08-05  ckr: <Calli><SBC> <Most likely there was little consultation going on> This search has done jogged my memory and I recall other facts that must be brought into the light. There was a re-hash of this particular game I had come across in last week's Bell's Life that I must present: It picked up where Amant had determined that there was no way Morphy would take the pawn on h3 as it was well covered. Well, it was "My Friend de Barber" that said "What! Are you nuts! He is gonna clip you worse than I ever have!" Now Marcozy dropped the reference to the consultation not wanting shadow the more famous Barber in the next town over, Sevile, i believe it was. There you have it, and the rest is history and now we know who M.F. de B really is. Another piece of chess history saved by the "Bell".

This certainly has been a productive day.

May-08-05  SBC: <ckr>

There you go...

and I was so sure the M. in " B" stood for Monsieur.

May-08-05  ckr: <Calli><Best Info> ( B.) there was a period after the B that I missed on the first post. But the best info may be my previous post.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Calli: <ckr> And you want me to bring up more stuff like this? :-)

Chessmetrics lists one player who might fit the "De B"

Unfortunately, no one seems to have a first name and the trail seems to stop right there.

May-08-05  ckr: <Calli><And you want me to bring up more stuff like this?> Painful as it may be.

So while I am clowning around you are out comming up with "de Boistertre" and certainly that was no small feat, but I would have been in the B's.

I frequently check this link

But Hugo came up here

But a far cry from M.F. and even if we found a "Mario Francis de Boistertre" that played chess it is another step to claim it is him/her

Premium Chessgames Member
  Calli: <CKR> Hugo is another player that de Boistertre tied for last place. Its not his first name which apparently is unknown. On the Chess archeology site someone asked for a first name but got no answer. Apparently the Gaige book doesn't even have it. A deadend, I think. :-(
May-08-05  ckr: <Calli> Ye be far more advanced than I, but it appears that Hugo and de Boistertre both were weak players, as far as Gaige, I think SBC had that in her her hot little hands about 2 weeks ago, but the library hounds could not be held at bay.
May-08-05  Boomie: Meanwhile, back at the game...
It's clear that 12. ♔h2 is a real stinker. White has a nifty line which gives some chances for equality.

12. ♖e1 ♘xd4 13. ♘xd4 ♕xd4 14. ♖e4 ♕d6 15. ♘b3 ♘xh3+ 16. gxh3 ♕g6+ 17. ♖g4 ♗xg4 18. ♕xg4 ♕xg4+ 19. hxg4 ♖ad8

May-09-05  ckr: <Boomie><is a real stinker>"My Friend de Barber" agrees, a royal waste of tempo. But in your line, doesn't 14...Qf6 seem tastier then Qd6 followed by Nxh3?
May-09-05  Boomie: <ckr> 14...♕f6 is as good as 14...♕d6. There is a nice variation for white.

12. ♖e1 ♘xd4 13. ♘xd4 ♕xd4 14. ♖e4 ♕f6 15. ♕f3 ♕xb2 16. ♗xf7+ ♖xf7 17. ♖e8+ ♖f8 18. ♖xf8+ ♔xf8 19. ♕xf4+

May-10-05  ckr: <Boomie> I'm no Morphy, but he may have played 12 ...Bxh3 or 12 ...Nxh3. Who knows how things would have ended up. I think Amant played Kh2 just so Morphy would not end up with a piece on h3. B or N didn't matter which, he was fearful of the situation. Morphy played both the board and the man.
May-10-05  Boomie: <ckr> There may be a lesson here for us all. When matched against a strong tactician, play aggressively. A passive move like Kh2 is like blood in the water to them.
May-13-05  ckr: <Boomie> The following is hard to follow if you don't paste it into a player, but there is an interesting line if black does not recapture with Qxd4, and instead proceeds to rip apart the white king's position rather than equalize material (something none of the engines would even consider)(there could be a devastating knight fork if black plays pxh3 after Bxh3) A bit hurried but I got to get to work.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Bxd2+ 8.Nbxd2 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.O-O O-O 11.h3 Nf4 12.Kh2
( 12.Re1 Nxd4 13.Nxd4 Nxh3+
( 13...Bxh3 14.Re4
( 14.gxh3 Nxh3+ 15.Kh1
( 15.Kg2 Nf4+ 16.Kf3 Qxd4 17.Re4 Qxb2 18.Kxf4 Rad8 19.Re2 Qf6+ 20.Kg3 Qg5+ 21.Kf3 Rd4 22.Qg1 Rf4+ 23.Ke3 Rg4+ this line black has great advantage, I think? ) 15...Nxf2+ )
14...Qg5 15.Qf3 Qxg2+
( 15...Nxg2 16.Qxh3 Nf4+ 17.Qg3 Nh3+ 18.Kg2 Qxd2 19.Qxh3 c5 20.Rh1 Qg5+ 21.Rg4 Qxg4+ 22.Qxg4 cxd4 )
14.gxh3 Qg5+ 15.Kf1
( 15.Kh1 Bxh3 16.Rg1 Qh6 17.Rg2 Bxg2+
( 17...Bg4+ 18.Rh2 Qxh2+ 19.Kxh2 Bxd1 20.Rxd1 Rad8 21.Ne4 h5 ) 18.Kxg2 Qg5+ 19.Kf1 Rfe8 20.Qf3 )
15...Bxh3+ 16.Ke2 Rae8+ )
12...Nxd4 13.Nxd4 Qxd4 14.Qc2 Qd6 15.Kh1 Qh6 16.Qc3 Bf5 17.Kh2 Rad8 18.Rad1 Bxh3 19.gxh3 Rd3 20.Qxd3 Nxd3 21.Bxd3 Qd6+ 22.f4 Qxd3 0-1

Jul-07-05  notyetagm: A beautiful <interference> move that just wins instantly, 19 ... ♖d3!!. I had seen this position as a problem on the topic of interference in one of Chernev's tactics books but did not know that it came from a Morphy game.
Jul-07-05  fgh: I remember seeing this game in one book on tactics. I like the move 19. ... Rd3!!
May-06-07  wolfmaster: To B with a Saint is to lose.
May-06-07  Marmot PFL: I don't know why these players kept on challenging Morphy in open positions, especially players like white here who were poor tacticians. The Ruy Lopez or a queen pawn opening would be a much better choice.
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <I don't know why these players kept on challenging Morphy in open positions, especially players like white here who were poor tacticians.>

Poor St. Amant had been considered the leading player in the world before his defeat by Staunton in 1843. A little respect, please!

Premium Chessgames Member
  heuristic: 12.Kh2 is ugly, but not bad.
12.Kh2 Bf5 13.Re1 Qd6 14.Ne4 Bxe4 and the situation
is about equal to 12.Re1 Nxd4 13.Re4 Nde6 14.Bxe6 fxe6.

I think 13.Nxd4 giving up the pawn without a fight
is worse. 13.Nxd4 Qxd4 14.b3 c6 15.Nf3 Qf6 is not as
good as 13.Ne4 Be6 14.Rc1 Bxc4 15.Rxc4 Nde6.

15.Kh1 is a stinker, but PM drops the attack with
16...Bf5. He should played the R interpostion theme
now; 16...Rd8 17.Rae1 Bxh3 18.gxh3 Rd3 19.Qxd3 and
the game is over.

Still, 18...Bxh3 and 19...Rd3 is a pretty combination!

Jan-02-09  gauer: Who might the purported 2nd player have been given speculation as (just a wild guess - apologies if this is not whom the intials were really meant to stand for)? Perhaps Saint Amant thought that he needed to test a theory of a former French champion, Louis Charles Mahe De La Bourdonnais - died 1840 - 18 years prior to the Morphy tour of Cafe de la Regence region. Not sure what the "F" might stand for (another middle name - which might not have been too uncommon those days), & only noticed the similarity in the: ... M ... de (la) B(ourdonnais) pattern. It could be interesting to see whether the French Champion had much to say about this as a potential pet line at some Paris coffee-house.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Garech: Gorgeous Morphian Play!



Premium Chessgames Member
  wwall: BCM, March, 1881, p. 65 says "In Morphy's games (Bohn's Edition, p. 232) there occurs the following position (after move 18) in a game played between Morphy, and St. Amant consulting with F. de L. (not M.F. de B.) Bohn's edition is from 1869, Morphy's Games by Lowenthal. The 1860 edition of Morphy's Games by Lowenthal also calls it a consultation game, but only identifies that White was St. Amant & Ally. So who is F. de L. or M.F. de B?
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: The earliest source I've found so far gives initials for St. Amant's partner as: "F. de l'A." (source: Paul Morphy. Skizze aus der Schachwelt. Zweiter Theil., 1859, p28).

I've have always suspected that the amateur "F." was <de l'Angleterre> (de l'A.). Which would be: Mr. F. from England.

The Chess Monthly, Jan 1859, pp22-23, gives the game and identifies it as being against St. Amant and "another Parisian amateur". So perhaps a Paris native residing in England visiting France at the time of Morphy's visit?

That's as far as I've taken the matter... I shall add it to my list of unresolved questions (additions to the list grow faster than the subtractions!).

May-22-17  Jimmy720: I have analyzed this game. Any (constructive) criticism of my analysis is welcome.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Bd2 Bxd2+ 8. Nbxd2 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. O-O ♕b3 is the mainline (10. Qb3 Nce7) 11. O-O O-O 12. Rfe1 c6 13. Ne4 Qb6 14. Nc3 Qxb3 15. Bxb3 Be6 And the play revolves around d5) 10... O-O 11. h3 A weakening, non-devolping move Nf4 immediately taking advantage of White's mistake 12. Kh2 Concrete analysis shows that white is equal after (12. Ne4 Bxh3 (12... Nxh3+ 13. gxh3 Bxh3 14. Re1) 13. gxh3 Qd7 14. Re1 Nxh3+ 15. Kf1 Nf4 16. Neg5 h6 17. Re4 Qf5 18. Nxf7 Rxf7 19. Bxf7+ Qxf7) 12... Nxd4 13. Nxd4 Qxd4 14. Qc2 Qd6 (14... b5 ) Deflecting the bishop onto a unguarded square 15. Bb3 (15. Bxb5 Nxh3 16. gxh3 Qe5+) 15... Bb7 16. f3 Qd6) 15. Kh1 (15. Kg1 b5 16. Bxb5 (16. Bb3) 16... Bb7 ) 15... Qh6 (Now sacrifices are looming) (15... b5 16. Bxb5 Bxh3 ( 16... Nxg2 17. Kxg2 Qd5+ 18. Kh2 Qe5+ 19. f4 Qxb5) 17. gxh3 Qd5+ 18. Qe4 ) 16. Qc3 Bf5 This devolpment of the bishop seems artifical. (16... Rd8 Δ to deflect the queen with ♖xd2 17. Qe3 Rxd2 (17... Bf5) (17... Bxh3 guarding the back rank 18. gxh3 Rxd2 ) 18. Qe8#) 17. Kh2 Another timid king move Rad8 Δ ♖xd2 18. Rad1 Bxh3 19. gxh3 Rd3 20. Qxd3 Nxd3 21. Bxd3 Qd6+ A simple fork ends the game. 22. f4 Qxd3 0-1

Sep-08-18  jabinjikanza: That's my man brilliant always.
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