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|Nov-01-13|| ||Shamot: <abuzic> I mean 42...Re2 can lead to simplification and a playable endgame position for black.
After 43.Qf3 black simplifies with 43...Rxf2+
and seems a playable endgame position for black.
|Nov-01-13|| ||Marmot PFL: That was very difficult, more like a Sunday problem.|
|Nov-01-13|| ||stanleys: Soon after this game, Simagin played another one against Vladimirov. He improved his own play by 8...Bg4, got a powerful counterplay and won.|
B Vladimirov vs Simagin, 1963
|Nov-01-13|| ||M.Hassan: <abuzic:36.Bxe6! is a very clever forcing continuation, and in your variation after 37...Rcb5 it's # in 2: 38.Qe5+ Kc6 39.Qc7#.>|
Absolutely right. I simply missed that and knew have gone wrong somewhere!
In your second variation, it appears that move 49 is a typing error
49.Rd3# or 49.Qd3#
|Nov-01-13|| ||MiCrooks: I wonder if there was time pressure? Alternatives such as 36. Bxe6+ and 37. Qxd5 (or Qe3+ or Qc3+) all of which are better than Bxd5. But huge is after Bxd5 Black play Re8 where White plays Be6? Instead of Qc3+ which leads to a relatively quick mate. I guess I can understand simply saving the Bishop with check rather than looking at a Queen check that gives up the Bishop, but the mating net though perhaps it was just too hard to visualize.|
Anything other than Kxd5 is obviously crushing after Qxc6+(+) so that's the only line of concern. So then Qd3+ where there are only two options for Black: Ke6 or Kc5 (back to where you were).
Ke6 is the easy one, though the dance the Queen makes in cornering the King is nice to see. Qd7+ Kf6 Qd4+ Kf5 Qd5+ where there are four options Kxf4 Rh4++, Kg4 Qg5++, Re5 Qxe5+ Kg4 Qg5++ and the finish to the dance Kf6 Qg5+ Ke6 Qe5++.
I would expect that line to be easy to see. The one that probably confounded White was why give up the Bishop just to let Black step back to c4 again? That just seems silly. Here White would have had to have seen the beautiful quiet move Rb7! threatening Rb5++. In spite being up a Rook Black is powerless to either drum up an attack (no checks) or defend his hapless monarch. The Rook on c6 must move to give Black so luft, but where? There are four clearance moves Ra6, Rd6, Re6, Rf6 all of which lose to b4+
Kc6 and Qd7++ or on Rd6 Qb5++. A bit longer is Rb6 Rc7+ where either Kb4 Qc4+ Ka5 Ra7+ Ra6 Rxa6++ or Rc6 Qc3+ follow by several short variations all starting with Qxc6+(+) where the rest is clear.
Missing the mate can be forgiven, but still I stand by the question mark for Be6+. b4+ was also available and again much clearer than what ensued. If Black doesn't take the pawn he is quickly mated but by doing so he allows Qd4+ where the three pieces working together will still quickly ensare the Black King.
|Nov-01-13|| ||lzromeu: <abuzic 42...Re2 does not save black:
42...RC7 looks good
43 Qf7 or Qa4?
|Nov-01-13|| ||Marmot PFL: <I wonder if there was time pressure?>|
Gee, ya think so? It would be amazing if there wasn't. Who cares if white didn't find the fastest win, all long as he keeps the edge to move 40 with time left he can bring home the point.
|Nov-01-13|| ||abuzic: <M.Hassan: In your second variation, it appears that move 49 is a typing error <49.Rf3+ Kg5>
49.Rd3# or 49.Qd3#>
Are you referring to this variation or am I missing something?
36.Bxe6! Rc5 37.Qe5+ Kc6 38.Qc7+ Kb5 39.Bd7+ Kc4 40.Qe5 d4 41.Qe2+ Kb4 42.a3+ Ka5 43.b4+ Rxb4 44.axb4+ Kxb4 45.Qb2+ Kc4 46.Be6+ Kd3 47.Rh3+ Ke4 48.Qe2+ Kxf4
This is the position after move 48...
click for larger view
from here: 49.Rf3+ Kg5 50.Qd2+ Qf4 <we can remark 50...Kh4 or 50...Kh5 51.Rh3#> 51.Qxf4+ Kh5 52.Rh3#
|Nov-01-13|| ||abuzic: <lzromeu: 42...RC7 looks good
43 Qf7 or Qa4?>
43.Qf7 Re2 (now this is good!) and white has to be careful: 44.b4+ Qxb4 because if white plays something like 44.Kh3 then 44...Rd2 leads to a position in favor of black now threatening to win the B, which cannot be protected effectively. Don't forget that black is up the exchange. There are so many lines to analyze and these are general ideas only.
43.Qa4 Kb6 (forced) and still nothing winning for white immediately.
Perhaps 43.Rg7 is a better choice, but I cannot further comment on this, as the whole white's strong attck, has evaporated.
|Nov-01-13|| ||abuzic: <Shamot: I mean 42...Re2 can lead to simplification and a playable endgame position for black. After 43.Qf3 black simplifies with 43...Rxf2+
and seems a playable endgame position for black.>
Game my continue 47.Rh6 Rxa2 48.Rxg6
This is the position after this suggested "simplification", white is a B+P up and is theoretically winning:
click for larger view
According to 6 tablebase black to move, loses in 20 moves
|Nov-01-13|| ||Shamot: <abuzic> you are right. Black looses anyway. I guess you can not expect GMs to make blunders in endgames, and obviously you can not rely in a game on your opponent making blunders.|
|Nov-01-13|| ||Penguincw: I couldn't find a way to fork the king and rook. :-|.|
|Nov-01-13|| ||tivrfoa: really long sequence. congratulations for those who found it. xD|
|Nov-01-13|| ||morfishine: <Microoks> Nice write up, but the question is really a matter of "pattern recognition". The lesson in this game is that <32.Rxf8+> kills and White missed it. Why? Who knows|
I saw 32.Rxf8+ in about 20-seconds. Then in about 1-minute more, I had it all figured out. Am I gloating? Not at all. This just exemplifies the concept of "pattern recognition". This combination was a merging of more than one pattern, and in this case, I saw them all like a "perfect storm" so to speak. The point is that if one does not have these "patterns" registered in their "chess brain archive', they will need to work through the sequence, or miss the thread entirely. Furthermore, one should register this sequence for future reference when a similar position arises.
I am happy that the solution was easily visible. This makes up, somewhat, for missing about half of the last 8 puzzles or so.
|Nov-01-13|| ||gawain: Oh, man!|
|Nov-01-13|| ||dark.horse: The chaotic ones are toughest.|
|Nov-01-13|| ||Patriot: 31.Rh8+ Kf7 32.Rxf8+
32...Rxf8 33.Bxe6+ Kxe6 34.Qxg7
32...Kxf8 33.Rh8+ Kf7 34.Bxe6+ Kxe6 35.Qxg7 Rxh8 36.Qxa7
32...Qxf8 33.Rh7+ Ke8 34.Rh8
The last line may be the trickiest to win but I would evaluate it as winning.
|Nov-01-13|| ||Patriot: <morf> Good job! 32.Rxf8+ is definitely winning. It's entirely possible white saw the 32.Rxf8+ line and thought it was winning and so played 31.Rh8+. But when he got to move 32, he thought "I wonder if there is a better move?" and played Houdini's choice of 32.Qxa7+. So the lesson here I believe is that just because the player played each move brilliantly, it doesn't mean they had foreseen it!|
So in my opinion, you analyzed it perfectly! 32.Rxf8+, given all of black's reasonable responses proves 31.Rh8+ is winning and that is "good enough".
|Nov-01-13|| ||MiCrooks: Is Rxf8 better before playing Qxa7+? Hard to believe. I would say he definitely saw Rxf8+ but realized that he could play Qxa7+ first and figured that position was better. If Houdini is picking it my guess is that it IS better--unless the lines leading from Rxf8+ are forced. Qxa7+ FORCES Kf6 so Rxf8+ is always available again after taking the pawn. He saw that removing the Knight was the key to collapsing Black's defense.|
|Nov-01-13|| ||MiCrooks: According to Rybka White missed 32. Rxf8+ because it has a value of 3.13 versus 7.33 for Qxa7+ first :)|
|Nov-01-13|| ||MiCrooks: So Morph, while the immediate Rxf8+ certainly works, it is much better to delay it for a move winning a pawn and forcing the K up to f6.|
|Nov-01-13|| ||Patriot: <MiCrooks> I agree that Qxa7+ is best according to Houdini. But I'm not sure you understand my point.|
When thinking ahead, you only need to prove the initial move is best (or at least winning)--in this case 31.Rh8+. And if 32.Rxf8+ proves it is winning, no matter how black responds, then the job is done and 31.Rh8+ can be played. It's a waste of time to look for something better than 32.Rxf8+ unless you analyze another winning candidate first (like 32.Qxa7+).
|Nov-01-13|| ||Patriot: <MiCrooks> Hopefully you see my point and is the difference between human vs. computer analysis. Always looking for the most precise moves is a bad way to train, in my opinion. I can see how it might help one visualize better but I think this can actually be harmful if always practiced this way.|
|Nov-02-13|| ||kevin86: Kind of a ring-around-the-rosie theme with the black king being hunted.|
|Nov-02-13|| ||DanielSarmiento: I played the same moves but thought differently on move 35.|
I had in mind Qe5 threatening 36. Rh7+ which would soon lead black to exchange her queen to white's rook or get mated. In case black plays 35... Kd7 white can now play 36.Qxe6+ followed by a mate in three moves. And if black moves 35... Qg8 then 36. Bxe6 should do the job for white.
But maybe I missed something...
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