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Adolf Anderssen vs Wilhelm Steinitz
Anderssen - Steinitz (1866), London ENG, rd 1, Jul-18
Italian Game: Evans Gambit. Paulsen Variation (C51)  ·  1-0

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-10-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: I love Morphy's games as much as the next guy. Lawson's book on Morphy was one of the first chess books I ever had the pleasure to read through and Morphy's games were among the very first I played through, once I learned how to read chess notation. I was blown away. You could say, as a chess player, Morphy has always been in my heart.

Having said that, it's important to acknowledge one's biases, if one is to think critically or gain insight. In like spirit, I think <psmith's> question is a very good one.

< Consider that Steinitz reigned as world champion in the world of Chigorin, Zukertort, Blackburne as well as Anderssen. Which of Morphy's opponents other than Anderssen could equal those players -- all of whom Steinitz beat at match play?>

Indeed, which of Morphy's opponents were on the level of Chigorin, Zukertort and Blackburne? I think anyone who has taken the time to play through all of their games (chig, zuke, black) should understand that they were and order of magnitude better than all of Morphy's best opponents, except for Anderrsen.

Perhaps, just perhaps, Harrwitz stands out, but I don't think Harrwitz was even on Anderrsen's level.

Speaking of Anderrsen, I think his play, like Byrd's, changed for the better over the years. I think both Anderrsen and Byrd were much stronger when they played Steinitz.

Apr-10-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <I think both Anderrsen and Byrd> are misspelt.
Apr-10-20  Boomie: Of interest in this match was Anderssen 's use of the Evans Gambit. This was Morphy's favorite opening as white until Anderssen showed him how black can hang on to the pawn. What improvements occurred to resurrect the Evans for this match?
Apr-10-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: < Boomie: Of interest in this match was Anderssen 's use of the Evans Gambit. This was Morphy's favorite opening as white until Anderssen showed him how black can hang on to the pawn. What improvements occurred to resurrect the Evans for this match?>

An interesting question, <Boomie>. For now, I'd just like to point out that AlphaZero took white in the Evan's and won against Stockfish by capitalizing on very long term compensation. If the Evan's can win at that level (which is what, 3600?) then I think we can finally say it is a sound gambit.

Apr-10-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: The apostrophe has become redundant, but if you insist, it should be the Evansí.
Apr-10-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <MissScarlett: The apostrophe has become redundant, but if you insist, it should be the Evansí.>

The apostrophe cannot be correct if <Evans> is preceded by <the>.

<Boomie> 8.Ba3. The move may have been known, I can't remember.

Morphy vs F Greenaway, 1859

Apr-10-20  Allanur: What a desperation :D I mistook by a 1 year or two, they played in 1858 in which Morphy was 21 or so. And that was the only mistake someone could oppose... Not a bad shot, congrats.

Ok,
* Morphy was 21 years old when he played them.

Steinitz was <26 and above when he met them

Apr-10-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: Morphy beat a bunch of tomato cans, just like Mike Tyson. He only had a couple worthy opponents.

Steinitz face a much stronger field, like Muhammad Ali.

Apr-11-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <banal pedant: Morphy beat a bunch of tomato cans, just like Mike Tyson. He only had a couple worthy opponents....>

Not his fault he was so far ahead of most everyone in terms of understanding--if this were a political race, with your horse in the ascendancy, you would be crowing about the smashing victories earned.

<....Steinitz face (sic) a much stronger field, like Muhammad Ali.>

Practising your Ebonics again in all this spare time, <boy>?

Apr-11-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: <Perfidious>, don't send me any naked pictures of yourself, please.

I recommend you stop drunk posting and drunk emailing, weirdo creep.

Apr-11-20  sudoplatov: The 1858 and 1859 EDO ratings show that Paulsen, Anderssen, Harrwitz, and Lowenthal were clearly strong grandmasters. Boden, Barnes, Bird and Bird would be in the next tier. Some of Morphy's other opponents were quite strong also.

A quick look at 1866 shows the same group with Steinitz added but sitting on top of the heap. There were far more strong players in the list though.

Apr-11-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: Ok, it all started in London 1851. Staunton won the tournament.

This was the point where chess players were actually paid decent money. So chess became popular.

Then came Morphy.. first he refused to play for money. So I don't believe Staunton 'ducked' Morphy; Staunton simply did not want to play for nothing. Go figure.

People are talking about the war, but Morphy got no clients because they thought he was crazy. Which, at that point, was true: Morphy did not have any sense for reality. He was a hopeless romantic. Long story short: he never defended nobody.

You cannot really blame the guy; he grew up in Disneyland.

Apr-11-20  Boomie: <keypusher: 8.Ba3. The move may have been known, I can't remember.>

8.Ba3 is played in the 5...Ba5 variation. Steinitz played 5...Bc5 in this match.

Anderssen undoubtedly knew that Steinitz would play 5...Bc5. Perhaps he found something for white in that variation.

The Evans has held up pretty well over the years. Modern GMs occasionally play it. They are finding new life in the Giuoco Piano, too.

Apr-11-20  Boomie: <WorstPlayerEver: Then came Morphy.. first he refused to play for money.>

He didn't accept prizes since he was from a wealthy family. He donated his prizes.

For example, after the first American Congress:

At the award ceremony on November11, Morphy, having requested that he not receive any monetary prize if he won, was presented with a silver serving set, note 9 consisting of a pitcher, four goblets and a salver in lieu of the original $300.

After the tournament Morphy played many casual games, refusing no one who asked to play, but he refused to play for for stakes which "pleased them the more."

(http://www.edochess.ca/batgirl/morp...)

Whether or not he was going to accept a prize had nothing to do with Staunton ducking the match.

Apr-11-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: < Boomie: <keypusher: 8.Ba3. The move may have been known, I can't remember.> 8.Ba3 is played in the 5...Ba5 variation. Steinitz played 5...Bc5 in this match.

Anderssen undoubtedly knew that Steinitz would play 5...Bc5. Perhaps he found something for white in that variation.

The Evans has held up pretty well over the years. Modern GMs occasionally play it. They are finding new life in the Giuoco Piano, too.>

But in their match, Anderssen and Morphy didn't play (Morphy vs Anderssen, 1858) the variation that Steinitz and Anderssen played repeatedly (including this game), leading to the so-called Normal Position. I don't think anyone in the 1850s or 1860s, except maybe Steinitz, thought that this variation had been refuted.

For an amazing recent game in this variation (sort-of), see AlphaZero vs Stockfish, 2018. I keep trying to drag people to it because I spent so many hours annotating it, or rather helping my engine annotate it.

Apr-11-20  Boomie: <keypusher>

Here's the reference to Morphy's statement about the Evans.

<After Morphy lost the first game offering the Evan's Gambit, he remarked to Edge that the game "proved to him that the Evans is indubitably a lost game for the first player, if the defense be carefully played; inasmuch as the former can never recover the gambit pawn, and the position supposed to be acquired at the outset, cannot be maintained.">

http://www.edochess.ca/batgirl/morp...

In a way, Morphy announced the dawn of modern chess when he said that at the level of the top players, the loss of a single pawn is a very serious matter. However the current status of the Evans is not so clear. It's still a good game.

Apr-11-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: <Boomie>

It had all to do with it IMO: he was posh. Do you know what the average income was at that time?

Apr-11-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: <Boomie>

Nope, "modern chess" started at 1851 in London.

Now guess who organized that tournament.. while Morphy had not worked a single day in his life.

Apr-11-20  Allanur: < Morphy beat a bunch of tomato cans, just like Mike Tyson. He only had a couple worthy opponents. Steinitz face a much stronger field, like Muhammad Ali. >

Steinitz struggled against two OLD *tomato cans* Morphy destroyed them easily in their youth. Steinitz barely defeated them thanks to their old age.

Steinitz struggled against old *tomato cans* while Morphy dominated them.

Apr-12-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: <Allanur: < Morphy beat a bunch of tomato cans, just like Mike Tyson. He only had a couple worthy opponents. Steinitz face a much stronger field, like Muhammad Ali. >

Steinitz struggled against two OLD *tomato cans* Morphy destroyed them easily in their youth. Steinitz barely defeated them thanks to their old age.>

I already refuted this once.

Let me address this clearly and systematically so that your responsibility to respond to my points can't be overlooked.

First of all, Anderssen and Bird were much better chess players, much stronger, when they played Steinitz later on. Much stronger.

Bird beat Lasker!

Bird vs Lasker, 1892

That's stepping into a whole new modern era of chess! He couldn't have done that when he was patzering around with Horwitz in his early days.

Secondly, you haven't said which of Morphy's opponents were on the level of Chigorin, Zukertort and Blackburne.

Yes, you said "all of them" but that's obviously you being butthurt by my question, because we all know that players like Meek and Schulten and the likes didn't even approach their level.

Because you were unable to come up with any names, we can now conclude that you were forced to admit that Morphy played no one on par with Zuke, Chig and Blackburne, aside from Anderssen, who got stronger later.

Thanks for playing.

I think we're done here.

Apr-12-20  Allanur: No, both were much both much younger,meaning fit, and stronger when they played Morphy.

And the game you posted is a crazy gambit, likes of which are played in Morphy era as well. What is there to be sold as "new era?" 😀 And Bird had been playing such games in 1850s as well. But thanks for the game, because that is theplayer Morphy whipped the floor with:

Bird vs Morphy, 1858

As you yourself stated, I did say "all of them were, if not better."

Each and every player Morphy faced was much better than each and every player Steinitz won a game against (except Lasker). And the indisputable proof of that is Bird and Anderssen, the two players that got dominated by Morphy in their youth but still were an almost too hard of a challenge in their old age against Steinitz.

We were done from the beginning as the *old potatoes* that were raped by Morphy almost raped Steinitz. None of you have dared to counter that point, as you have nothing to say.

Thank me again for the education.

Apr-12-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: <Allanur>

Ok, but after 3 moves Morphy is theoretically lost in that game. Just saying.

Apr-12-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: <Allanur: No, both were much both much younger,meaning fit, and stronger when they played Morphy.>

We're not talking about doing pushups and wrestling. We are talking about chess.

Your assumption is that because they were younger they played better chess. That is wrong and you can tell just by looking at their games. Perhaps you are unable to make that judgment when playing them over.

Your answer didn't include players in MOrphy's time that were the equal of Chigorin, Zukertort and Blackburne.

I get the feeling that you can't tell a stronger player from a weaker one.

Apr-13-20  Allanur: We are not talking about having decayed teeth and white hairs. We are talking about chess.

Your assumption is that since time has advanced they became better chess players. That is wrong and you can tell just by looking at their games. Obviously you are unable to do that when playing over them.

My answer did and does address that from the beginning: Each and every player Morphy played was better.

I know you are unable to tell a stronger player from a weaker one, Morphy dominated Bird and Anderssen - Steinitz struggled against the two and barely defated them.

Apr-13-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Big Pawn: <allanur: Your assumption is that since time has advanced they became better chess players.>

No, I have studied their games over the last few years and have made that determination based off of that research.

That all you got?

<Each and every player Morphy played was better.>

So you think Judge Meek was a better player than Chigorin?

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