< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 5 ·
|Dec-09-08|| ||DwayneMeller: Okay I agree to squash this. I just want you to know I like the longer continuations that show alternate wins because they are more instructive. Example: Say you play and get a similiar position but one style of attack is not possible (or does not work under the circumstances) and you don't know how to attack otherwise ...then you would miss the full point whereas if you know diffrent ways to win and only one is possible you would find it...plus I like to get the most out of all positions through study of games and puzzles so finding the longest line enables you to find all types of tactics (if you don't know how to use all types tactics or you miss them you will not improve on that tactic) if you don't know all types of tactics this will happen too. Even though all of us here more than likely do know them all... by not using them we will get rusty...analyzing to the death prevents that. In the book <mastering chess tactics> which I got in may of 07 when I was 16 GM Neil Mcdonald for instance mentions how NOT KNOWING a particular tactic could lose games for you and be a "bug" in your chess system & he also talks about how he studied GM games to the death...so by following that example ...you can't go wrong.|
|Dec-09-08|| ||Nullifidian: Like many others here, my first thought was of 41. ♖g8+. It's obvious, with both the knight pinned and the g8 square covered by White's bishops, that ♖g8+ is the most forcing move, and it's a forced mate in 11.|
41. ♖g8+ ♖xg8 42. ♗xf6+ ♖g7 43. ♗xg7+ ♔h7 44. ♗e5+ ♗d7 45. ♖xd7+ ♔g6 46. ♗e4+ ♔h5 47. ♖g7 ♖xe5 48. ♗f3+ ♔h4 49. ♖g4+ ♔h5 50. ♖g3+ ♔h4 51. ♖h3#
There are a few places where Black can make different moves than the ones I listed, but, as Bobby Fischer might have said, they just cause Black to lose faster.
|Dec-09-08|| ||kevin86: I was confused by the text-The sac at 41 ♖g8+ etc seemed much clearer.|
41 ♖g8+ ♖xg8 42 ♗xf6+ ♖g7 43 ♗xg7+ ♔h7 44 ♗d4+ ♔g6 45 ♗f7+ and 46 ♗xe8
White is up and rook and bishop and even a caveman can win now. Even Fred Flintstone? Yes!
|Dec-09-08|| ||hedgeh0g: I went for Rg8+. Why bother calculating variations when you have a completely forced sequence which wins material off the bat?|
|Dec-09-08|| ||playground player: See chat below: so much for chess being a refuge for the civilized. It's too bad that the general coarsening of our culture has extended here. I hope CG.com bounces the both of you.|
|Dec-09-08|| ||marcwordsmith: As an obvious forcing line, isn't Rg8+ Rxg8, Bxf6+ Rg7, Rxg7 even more simple than Bxg7+? Threatens mate next move, and it's not clear to me how Black can prevent it other than by throwing away his remaining rook with either Rg8 (and mate to follow shortly) or Re2+ which loses quickly to Rg2+. I mean, nothing ambiguous or complicated about that line, is there?|
|Dec-09-08|| ||marcwordsmith: Or, after Rxg7, if Black responds with Rf8, then Rg8+ picking up the rook for free.|
|Dec-09-08|| ||Nullifidian: <marcwordsmith><As an obvious forcing line, isn't Rg8+ Rxg8, Bxf6+ Rg7, Rxg7 even more simple than Bxg7+?>|
It doesn't win as quickly as ♗xg7+. Black does have to throw his rook away, but he can do that by playing 43. ... ♖e6, which seems to be the best move in a bad position. After 44. ♗xe6 ♗xe6 45. ♖e7+ ♔g8 46. ♖xe6 ♙d5, White is winning, but not with a forced checkmate like the mate in 11 I posted above.
|Dec-09-08|| ||Halldor: I saw that the rook on f8 was overworked so I immediately went for 41 Rg8+, not bad but I should have looked for other moves as well.|
|Dec-09-08|| ||Domdaniel: As I said before, these are real games, not compositions. Sometimes there is more than one right answer. I went for Rg8+ which clearly wins, though I didn't look too hard for a mate.|
|Dec-09-08|| ||Antonius Blok: I was sure I found it, but it wasn't the good moves: |
41.Rg8+ Rxg8 42.Bxf6+ Rg7 43.Bxg7+ Kh7 44.Bd4+ Kg6 45.Bf7+ Kh7 46.Bxe8+ etc...
|Dec-09-08|| ||Phony Benoni: <Nullifidian> I'm with <marcwordsworth> on this one. For human beings, an obviously winning practical move is better than an 11-move mating sequence that might well be miscalculated. The more a person has to think, the more chances there are to commit a blunder. (At least, that seems to be true in my case.)|
By the way, I wouldn't consider 41.Rg8+ "wrong" at all. I'll bet Kvon was furious after the game about missing it.
|Dec-09-08|| ||YouRang: It appears to be another multi-solution puzzle.
The first one I considered seemed good enough:
41.Rf7 <threat: Bxf6#, or if black tries to stop it with 41...Re5, then Rxf8+ wins> Rxf7 <practically forced>
42.Bxf7 <now threatens Bxe8 and Bxf6+>
All that's left for black is to throw his remaining rook away to avoid immediate mate -- and then resign.
|Dec-09-08|| ||TheChessGuy: I guess I'm not the only one who preferred 41. Rg8+! When I looked at the solution, I was kind of surprised to see 41. Bf7.|
|Dec-09-08|| ||gawain: The game continuation (which I did not see) is beautiful--but so is the alternate solution Rg8+(which I did see). |
I don't mind these multi-solution ones as long as the combinations are all nice.
|Dec-09-08|| ||TheaN: Tuesday 9 December 2008.
White: c3, f4, Bd4, Bd5, Ra7, Rg2, Kh2
Black: d6, h6, Nf6, Bf5, Re8, Rf8, Kh8
Material: /+\ ♗+♗/♗+♘
Under siege must have been Black's final thoughts, whom has probably blundered this game away in the last few seconds before the time control. But how do the White pieces, perfectly placed with both Bishops in the center, finish off of the Black King?
<41.Rg8†!> and an easy take out the defender ensues on ♘f6, which himself is pinned. The following is forced.
<41....Rxg8 42.Bxf6† Rg7 43.Bxg7† Kh7 44.Bd4†> winning one piece. Maybe 43.Rxg7 is better, also winning a piece with a discovery check threat, but this sequence does not end the misery for Black being completely forced... he cannot simply move his King down the board.
<44....Kg6 45.Rg7† Kh5 46.Bf3† Bg4 (Kh4 47.Bf2‡ 1-0) 47.Bxg4† Kh4 48.Bf2‡ 1-0> and Black will see his last piece go down the drain together with his King, so he should decide to give it away when he can still save his King.
<44....Bd7 45.Rxd7† > but now the Black position is in complete rubble, having no piece left against White's Bishops: it is probably still mate, but that is unnecessary with two pieces up.
Time to check.
|Dec-09-08|| ||TheaN: 2/2
Although I did miss in B: <45....Kg6 46.Bf7† > and Black will have NO pieces left against a Bishop pair and Rook... ouch. Would have seen that after Kg6 OTB, just didn't look far enough, IF my opponent is willing to play on.
41.Bf7!? is very nice though. As I've stated above, this move was no candidate at all... nice.
|Dec-09-08|| ||sheaf: shouldnt the puzzle be what doesnt win here!!|
|Dec-09-08|| ||zanshin: <CG> once told me that for the more difficult puzzles, the more of the solution you see, the more you solved the puzzle. In other words, don't always think of the puzzles in terms of black and white - that you got them or missed them.|
In this case, I believe that if you saw <41.Rg8+>, as many of us did, then you saw more of the solution than the actual player. (Of course, it helps to know that there is a winning move to be found ;-))
|Dec-09-08|| ||ZUGZWANG67: The obvious 41. Rg8+ comes immediately in mind, as 41. ...Rxg8 42 Bxf6+ Rg7 is forced. The main difficulty is to see which of (a)43. Rxg7 or (b)43. Bxg7+ is better.|
Of course, after (a)43. Rxg7, it seems hard for Black to escape mate, as 43. ...Re2+ 44. Rg2+ mate being the ultimate follow up. But instead of 43. ...Re2+, Black has some ugly thing like 43. ...Re5, which of course still wins for White, but may delay mate. In my view, it would be preferable that the path of the dark white bishop leading to h8 remains clear in order to deliver mate
On the other hand, if we consider (b) 43. Bxg7+, there appears to be no way Black can avoid game over after 43. ...Kh7 44. Bd4+ (!), as f6 and f7 remain out of reach for the black King. Then, 44. ... Kg6 45. Bf7+ is mate.
Let' s check this out...
|Dec-09-08|| ||ZUGZWANG67: Ooops ! Am I missing something ? I really thought I was right !!|
|Dec-09-08|| ||ZUGZWANG67: Re ooops !|
|Dec-09-08|| ||crippledpawn: Just another way to slice the pie.
41. Rg8+ Rxg8
42. Bxf6+ Rg7
43. Rxg7 Re2+
44. Rg2+ Kh7
P. S. Don't take the Rook even though it is free for the taking.
|Dec-09-08|| ||DarthStapler: I got Rxg8+ and it wins anyway so I'll say I got it|
|Dec-09-08|| ||SufferingBruin: Rg8+ starts it off. The knight can't capture because of the pin and of course the king can't capture so that leaves the rook, eliminating the black King's only escape square. |
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