< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Jul-03-12|| ||FSR: The obvious move is 79...g1(N), which should eventually draw. 79...Nc4! is at least equally good, forcing an immediate draw after either 80.Nxg2 Nxa3 81.b6 Nc4 82.b7 Nd6+ or 80.a4 Nd2+! 81.Ke5 (81.Ke3?? g1(Q) check!) Nf3+ 82.Ke4 Nd2+.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||BlackSheep: Black hopes for a draw via knight promotion and then collecting the two white pawns with the knights I guess but I dont know a line to prove this . And I'll take this opportunity to say Happy Birthday to <Oxspawn> while I'm here .|
|Jul-03-12|| ||Mojodomo: Happy Birthday <Oxspawn>! You got further than I did on this one. |
A pedantic question: will it be perpetual check in the Nc4 line, or draw by repetition, since check is technically not forced?
|Jul-03-12|| ||awfulhangover: I think this was very easy. How else not to lose the pawn or the new piece after promotion?
Is it underpromotion week?|
|Jul-03-12|| ||FSR: <Mojodomo: ... A pedantic question: will it be perpetual check in the Nc4 line, or draw by repetition, since check is technically not forced?>|
The Laws of Chess don't actually say anything about "perpetual check." It would be a draw by three-time repetition of position, or a draw by agreement upon the players recognizing the imminent or actual three-time repetition of position.
<9.2 The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves):
a. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or
b. has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.
Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same.
Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant can no longer be captured in this manner. When a king or a rook is forced to move, it will lose its castling rights, if any, only after it is moved.> http://www.fide.com/component/handb...
|Jul-03-12|| ||TheaN: <FSR> isn't there a study or part of a gamne that illustrates how both the en passant and castling rule embedded in the repetition rule allow a win instead of three times repetition?|
Can't recall what it was.
|Jul-03-12|| ||TheTamale: Hee hee, I knew as soon as I saw the result, 1/2-1/2, that I guessed correctly.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||doubledrooks: It seemed to me that 79...Nd5 didn't work after 80. Nxg2 Nc3+ 81. Ke5 Nxb5 82. a4, so I went with 79...g1=N, though I certainly wasn't positive Black could draw.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||kevin86: I guess the solution here is to promote to a knight and avoid the adverse knight fork. Later,black repeats the fork on white.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||King Sacrificer: Game continuation is not "easy". Black has still a lot of work to do after 80. Nd5.|
FSR's line is much easier but it's still not a Tuesday stuff in my opinion. Good puzzle..
|Jul-03-12|| ||paulalbert: <FSR> interestingly reminds us that the drawing concept of perpetual check does not exist in the laws of chess. Eventually a perpetual check gets to a three move repetition ( or maybe the 50 move rule first ). When I play against a computer in a clearly drawn including perpetual check position, it will use every reasonable variant ( if one exists ) to avoid a three move repetition and draw.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||chrisowen: <paulalbert> Cracking game white reaally it knuckled in try one almost thought it quiet in b5 a3 ko black in lambast it saving grace in c4 or g1 it dog in dig have winding up pilfer dreams it a4 reaching final outpost in a8 core why it pave in ready to believe in together switching in swap knight tour rings heap in either side again too slow ok at black has counter-pay in reverance 2g glesson in g1 meloow draw.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||BOSTER: <FSR> <79...Nc4 is at least equally good
80. Nxg2 Nxa3 81.b6 Nc4 82.b7 Nd6+>.
But what if after 79...Nc4 white play <crazy> 80.b6
Nxb6 81.Nxg2 Kf6 82.Kd4 Ke6 83.Kc5 Nd5 84.a4 Nc7 85.Kc6 ...
|Jul-03-12|| ||scormus: <BOSTER 79...Nc4 80.b6 Nxb6 81.Nxg2 Kf6 82.Kd4 Ke6 83.Kc5 Nd5 84.a4 Nc7 85.Kc6 ...>
80 ... Nd2+ perhaps?|
|Jul-03-12|| ||scormus: ... but OTB a good try, it would take a cooler head than mime to not play 80 .... Nxb6?!|
|Jul-03-12|| ||FSR: <BOSTER: <FSR> <79...Nc4 is at least equally good 80. Nxg2 Nxa3 81.b6 Nc4 82.b7 Nd6+>.|
But what if after 79...Nc4 white play <crazy> 80.b6 Nxb6 81.Nxg2 Kf6 82.Kd4 Ke6 83.Kc5 Nd5 84.a4 Nc7 85.Kc6 ...>
I thought of 80.b6, but didn't bother mentioning it. As <scormus> suggests, 80...Nd2+! 81.Ke5 Nf3+ will still force a draw by repetition. And his alternative suggestion 80...Nxb6(?) is still a tablebase draw. After 81.Nxg2, any move besides 81...Nd5?? draws. In your line 80.b6 Nxb6 81.Nxg2 Kf6 82.Kd4 Ke6 83.Kc5 Nd5 (83...Na4, 83...Nd7, 83...Nc8 also draw) 84.a4, now 84...Ne7 or 84...Nc3 is sufficient to draw. Your suggestion 84...Nc7? loses in 28. http://www.k4it.de/index.php?topic=...
|Jul-03-12|| ||Patriot: I didn't think this was easy. 79...Nd5 looked interesting and 79...g1=N doesn't look that clear without a lot of analyzing.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||lost in space: Most probably I am drunk. Sigh.
Saw after 200 hours the move Nh3 and that this would be a nice, fantastic royal fork. The only way to avoid this is to promote to a knight (to protect square h3)
Afterwards it is minimum draw. I don't see a way to win it, but this may also my brain is itschibineteenywini
|Jul-03-12|| ||FSR: <lost in space> If you'd looked at the GOTD you would have seen the underpromotion to knight very quickly (as I've indicated, I prefer 79...Nc4, though both should lead to a draw). V Zurakhov vs Koblents, 1956 (see White's 57th and 79th(!) moves).|
|Jul-03-12|| ||Blunderdome: <scormus> So if one player gets a cyborg, it's mate unless the cyborg can be taken immediately?|
|Jul-03-12|| ||agb2002: Black is a pawn down.
White threatens 80.Nxg2.
Black can get another knight with 79... g1=N but the white pawns look very dangerous after 80.Nd5.
An interesting idea is 79... Nd5:
A) 80.Kxd5 Kxf4 wins.
B) 80.Nxd5 g1=Q wins.
C) 80.Nxg2 Nc3+
C.1) 81.Kd4 Nxb5+ and 82... Nxa3 =.
C.2) 81.Ke5, blocking the black king, which looks losing for Black, for example, 81... Nxb5 82.a4 Nc3 83.a5 Na2 84.Kd6 Nb4 85.Ne3 Na6 86.Nd5 Kf5 87.Kc6 Ke5 88.Nc7 Nb8+ 89.Kc5 Nd7+ 90.Kb5 Kd6 91.Ne8+ Ke6 92.a6, etc.
A better option seems to be 79... Nc4:
A) 80.a4 Nd2+ 81.Ke5 (81.Ke3(d4) g1=Q+; else 81... Kxf4) 81... Nc4+ 82.Ke4 Nd2+, perpetual.
B) 80.Nxg2 Nxa3 81.b6 Nc4 82.b7 Nd6+ and 83... Nxb7, draw.
|Jul-03-12|| ||PugtheThug: The draw is inevitable since after 79...g1=N, Black has two Knights only which cannot force checkmate and he needs to attack and prevent White's 2 pawns from being promoted. If White decides not to give up his Knight in a royal fork, then it seems like White could win having the extra two passed/connected pawns and a Knight. Many a time I've been beaten by these connected duo of pawns which support one another forcefully against an enemy piece.|
|Jul-04-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012
<79...g1=N!> and Black will eventually Draw.
|Jul-04-12|| ||dragon player: When I see this position, I started looking for trics to promote the pawn.
But I don't think there are any. Therefore black has to be happy with
and black should keep the draw with a piece vs two pawns.
Time to check.
2/2 It seems to be minorpromotionweek.
|Jul-05-12|| ||Mojodomo: Thanks for the follow-up <FSR>! Good to know.|
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