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Kelly Cottrell vs Aleksandr Lenderman
US Championship 2006 (2006), San Diego, CA USA, rd 8, Mar-10
Slav Defense: Quiet Variation. Schallopp Defense (D12)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-13-06  notyetagm: <Sami Jr> 19 fxg3 is an atrocious positional move to make, which is why she didn't want to play it.

19 hxg3?? is the correct move to play positionally but unfortunately it is a gross tactical error in this particular position since it opens the h-file for Black's h-file rook.

Mar-13-06  Warrush: A nice little 3 sec monday enigma.
Mar-13-06  apawnandafool: 19.fxg3 could comfortably cosy the king into a cramped pawn pocket.
Mar-13-06  Sami Jr: <notyetagm> Thank you for your opinion, but you have not convinced me that 19 fxg3 is an "atrocious" positional move to make instead of 19 hxg3. Your concluding statement is an oxymoron. How can the "correct positional move" be the same move that is a "gross tactical error"? If white was aware of the consequenses of 19 hxg3, surely she would have played 19 fxg3 instead. Nonetheless, my question remains...
Mar-13-06  Jim Bartle: "How can the "correct positional move" be the same move that is a "gross tactical error"?"

The operation was a success, but the patient died.

Mar-13-06  RandomVisitor: <Sami Jr>Best play for white at move 19 is 19.fxg3 followed by 19...Re8 or 19...Ndf6 with a score of roughly -0.80.
Mar-13-06  apawnandafool: <notyetagm an atrocious positional move to make"> Please Review Seirawan's ProChess DVD, Study Segment Three: The Master Pawn Structure, you'll find it sitting next to your untouched copy of Aagaard's Basic Positional Ideas.

Mar-13-06  yataturk: I'm wondering why my post got deleted. It wasn't offensive or anything..
Mar-13-06  Kelvieto: I wouldn't call Rh1+ a sac, there was immediate compensation for the rook... A queen. In fact, hxg3 instead of fxg3 should be considered a sac
Mar-13-06  Sami Jr: Thanks <RandomVisitor>. How do you get a score for each potential move? That is a useful feature. Which program do you use? What follow up (best) move for black does it suggest after 19.fxg3 ...?
Mar-13-06  notyetagm: <Sami Jr: ... Your concluding statement is an oxymoron.>

Not an oxymoron at all. In chess it often happens that the move that you want to make for strategic/positional reasons is also a gigantic tactical error, hence it cannot be played.

19 fxg3, taking away from the center, permanently gives Black control of the e4-square, which is why White did not play it. If White had played this, then White would have been worse, with the bad d2-bishop and hole on e4.

Instead White chose the <positionally desirable> move 19 hxg3??, taking towards the center, keeping her f-pawn on the f-file to contest the e4-square, but this move is a huge tactical mistake since it opens the h-file for the enemy's h6-rook.

Like I said, 19 fxg3 is an atrocious positional move to make, creating many strategic weaknesses (e4-hole, bad bishop) but it beats dropping the queen and a pawn for a rook like 19 hxg3?? does.

I should have used the expression <positionally desirable> in my previous post; that's what I meant by <positionally correct>.

Mar-13-06  aazqua: "Kelly Cottrell is the first person since Bobby Fischer to achieve a perfect score in the U.S. Championship. "

That is the best comment I've ever seen on this forum. Good show!

Mar-13-06  notyetagm: <Jim Bartle: "How can the "correct positional move" be the same move that is a "gross tactical error"?">

19 hxg3?? is the correct move from the positional/strategic point of view but here it is also tactical error. Why else do you think she played it?

Mar-13-06  notyetagm: <apawnandafool> You should do that reviewing if you do not understand the positional/strategic weaknesses created by 19 fxg3.
Mar-13-06  Granite: <notyetagm> What stratagy involves making tactical blunders? Certainly not the correct one...
Mar-13-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <What stratagy involves making tactical blunders? Certainly not the correct one...> Enough. It's obvious what <notyetagm> meant. Sheesh.
Mar-13-06  apawnandafool: <notyetagm> let me explain things to you. <Sami jr.> asked a very interesting question, which was trying to understand why Kelly-ga did not play 19.fxg3, which was clearly the move to make in the given position. (If she had seen the knight fork, she would have played that move...surely she saw it, didn't she? Then why didn't she play 19.fxg3? ) Perhaps there were deep consequences to 19.fxg3 that <Sami jr.> did not understand. This is what <Sami jr.> was asking: Could someone explain the consequences of 19.fxg3?

You answered that 19fxg3 was atrocious which is why she didn't play it. As if this was clearly understood. But it is not.

It's not atrocious, it's the best move to make given the position.

So we slaughtered your comments, and our comments were boosted by <Random Visitor>'s numerical estimation of -0.8 after 19.fxg3.

THEN you backpeddle, to the effect that 19.hxg3 was INFERIOR to 19.fxg3. ("it beats dropping the queen and a pawn for a rook like 19.hxg3?? does.)

And so now you pretend to understand what you've written, while you've left the rest of us completely baffled, it's not so obvious <keypusher>.

Thanks to <Random Visitor> for the analysis.

Mar-13-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: Look, if this is really a live dispute, I'll step out of it. But it seems like a silly argument even by cg.com standards. <notyetagm> observed that 19 fg is atrocious positionally (because it leaves the e-pawn hopelessly weak on an open file) AND it's the best move, because the only real alternative loses the queen at once. Is that really so hard to understand? Haven't we all made ugly, horrible moves because we had to? In fact, haven't we all done exactly what Cotrell did here -- avoided making the "ugly" move, only to lose on the spot to some tactical shot like ...Rh1+ that we overlooked? I sure have.

And it looks like <notyetagm> understood this in his initial post, which is why he put two question marks after 19 hg (not to mention there were three pages of kibitzes on Black's winning combination by then). So there was nothing for him to <backpeddle> from, apart from some possibly infelicitous phrasing.... That's all there is to it, end of "controversy". And with one final "Sheesh!" I take my leave.

Mar-13-06  apawnandafool: You're right. It's silly. I thought <Sami jr> had a great question and I thought <notyetagm> provided a very poor answer.
Mar-13-06  euripides: Sami <My question is if 19. fxg3, (i.e. if white took bishop with the other pawn) What would black have responded instead? 19. ... Nd7 f6?. Was black hoping that white would make that mistake?> I think that Black was trying to force fxg3 because the resulting pawn structure is problematic for White; e3 is a permanent weakness and White's hopes of playing f3 vanish. Although there are exceptions, it is likely to make sense to keep the White pawns together. 18...Bxg3 looks like the right move to me. After 19 fxe3 your Ndf6 looks sensible; I would also look at 19...Re6 and 19...Nxd2.
Mar-13-06  McCool: Low-rated white should have resigned.
Mar-13-06  Sami Jr: <euripides> Thanks for your comment. I did not mean to cause disputes amongst users with my initial post, I was merely trying to get in black's frame of thinking to evaluate his best possible response if 19 fxe3. I appreciate everyones comments in helping me become a better player as I have learned much from the cg posts.
Mar-13-06  MorphyMatt: One of the easiest puzzles yet. 1.89948869695884444848673 seconds.
Mar-13-06  notyetagm: <keypusher: ... And it looks like <notyetagm> understood this in his initial post, which is why he put two question marks after 19 hg (not to mention there were three pages of kibitzes on Black's winning combination by then).>

Thanks.

I do not understand how many times I have to write 19 hxg3?? with two question marks before they understand that I know that the move is a tactical error.

I was trying to explain to them how 19 fxg3 leaves a giant permanent hole on e4 and how the bad d2-bishop is in the resulting position, i.e., the reasons why White did not want to play it.

For some inexplicable reason, they cannot seem to grasp that a move that you want to play for strategic/positional reasons (19 ... hxg3??, again with two question marks for the upteenth time) can be a huge tactical mistake and that a move that you have to make (19 fxg3) can strategically/positionally lose the game.

A great strategic player like Petrosian, Capablanca, or Karpov would probably win quite often from the Black side of the position resulting from 19 fxg3. The given eval of 0.8 shows that Black is much better although material is even, due to his possessing the strategic assets that I have mentioned several times now.

Mar-13-06  Fezzik: If you're interested in a world clas game with a similar theme, check out Petrosian-Spassky World Championship match game 9, 1966.
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