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Shredder (Computer) vs Rybka (Computer)
WCCC 2006 (2006), Turin, rd 3, May-26
Scotch Game: Scotch Gambit. Advance Variation (C45)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Given 31 times; par: 94 [what's this?]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 1 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
May-28-06  whatthefat: What a crushing defeat of Rybka! Given that committing the king to the kingside at move 17 led only to a world of pain, I'd suggest that as the place to look for an improvement. 17...c4 and 17...f5 both look interesting. The question is, was 17...0-0 part of the opening book, or did Rybka go astray all by itself? Certainly Fritz 8 doesn't detect the venom of 19...f6 in advance, believing for a long that the line 21...Re8 is playable. It's only when it finds the brilliant refutation 22.Ng5!! fxg5 23.Rxf7!! (with mate in 9(!) if 23...Kxf7?) that it realises black is up the creek without a paddle.
May-28-06  EmperorAtahualpa: What an extraordinarily weak play by Rybka!

Definitely the biggest upset of the tournament. What could be the reason?

May-28-06  EmperorAtahualpa: Could 17...Qc8 be a better move for Black here? I'm merely speculating.
May-28-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: The Re8 Ng5 line is quite amazing. I think only top human players would have seen it.
May-29-06  patzer2: I'll definitely have to add the neat double sacrifice and King hunt possibility after 21...Re8 (diagram)


click for larger view

[White to move and win after 21...Re8]

22. Ng5!! fxg5 23. Rxf7! Kxf7 24. Qxh7+ Ke6 25. Qg6+ Kxe5 26. Bg7+ Kf4 27. Rf1+ Ke3 28. Qc2! Rf8 29. Re1+ Kf4 30. Be5+ Kg4 31. h3+ Kh5 32. Qh7# to my demolition of pawn structure collection.

May-29-06  patzer2: Of course in the line above instead of 23...Kxf7, Black can avoid immediate mate with 23...Bf5 24. Rxf5 Bc5 25. Raf1 Qc8 26. Qd1 (+2.88 @ 14 depth, Fritz 8), but White is still clearly winning.
May-29-06  patzer2: Here's a neat mate-in-five puzzle from the analysis in my first post above:


click for larger view

21...Re8]

[Find White's move (28.?) to mate-in-five (position after the possibility 21...Re8 22. Ng5!! fxg5 23. Rxf7! Kxf7 24. Qxh7+ Ke6 25. Qg6+ Kxe5 26. Bg7+ Kf4 27. Rf1+ Ke3)]

Solution: See analysis in my first post here (hint: it's a strong waiting move).

May-29-06  boowillo: This is the experimental multiprocessor version of Rybka not the program that won the 6th International CSVN Tournament (ICT6) in Leiden a few weeks back.....
May-29-06  s4life: Yup, it's not Rybka.
May-30-06  Montreal1666: They should have entered the regular Rybka as well.
May-30-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: Rybka is in Iceland.
May-30-06  jamesmaskell: Rybka's good, but it isnt a computer, though he played like one in 1972 and 1992...
Jun-02-06  Dionyseus: Bad opening which allowed for a position which Rybka does not play well.

According to Chessbase 9, 14...Nxd2 was played 13 times, lost 6 times, won once, and drew 6 times, so basically it has scored 31% for black.

16...Rb8 is a novelty. In 1993 Kreutzkamp rated 2220 played 16...0-0 against Voigt rated 2305, and managed to win. Here's the game: [Event "Hamburg-ch"]
[Site "Hamburg"]
[Date "1993.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Voigt, Martin"]
[Black "Kreutzkamp, Hans Rudolf"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C56"]
[WhiteElo "2305"]
[BlackElo "2220"]
[PlyCount "98"]

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. e5 d5 6. Bb5 Ne4 7. Nxd4 Bd7 8. Bxc6 bxc6 9. O-O Bc5 10. f3 Ng5 11. Be3 Bb6 12. f4 Ne4 13. Nd2 Nxd2 14. Qxd2 c5 15. Nf3 c6 16. c3 O-O 17. Qf2 c4 18. Bd4 Qc7 19. a4 Rab8 20. Nh4 f6 21. a5 Bxd4 22. cxd4 fxe5 23. dxe5 Rb5 24. Qe2 Rxa5 25. Rxa5 Qxa5 26. f5 c3 27. bxc3 Qxc3 28. e6 Be8 29. g4 c5 30. Nf3 d4 31. Qe5 Qb4 32. e7 Rf7 33. Ng5 d3 34. Nxf7 Qxg4+ 35. Kf2 Qh4+ 36. Ke3 Qh5 37. Nd6 Qe2+ 38. Kf4 Qxf1+ 39. Kg3 Qg1+ 40. Kh4 Qf2+ 41. Kh3 Qf3+ 42. Kh4 g5+ 43. Kxg5 Qh5+ 44. Kf4 Qxh2+ 45. Ke4 Bc6+ 46. Qd5+ Bxd5+ 47. Kxd5 Qh5 48. Ke6 d2 49. Ne4 Qf7+ 0-1

Jun-02-06  LIFE Master AJ: I guess Rybka still has some bugs ...

It hardly looks like the program that is "more than 100 points ahead of all the others" ... on some of these rating lists.

Jun-04-06  CapablancaFan: Shredder making some deep moves in this game. At first, I could'nt see the purpose of the move 19. f6 pawn sacrafice, but after 20.Bh6! in took me 20 to see Shredder had prepared a deep continuation if 21...Re8? 22.Ng5! and an amazing attack follows. I give Rybka credit for "seeing" the above line and playing 20...c4+! as it was necessary to position this bishop to defend the rook on f8. Obviously it wasn't enough to save the game, but it allowed Rybka to put up some resistance as long as it could. Shredder is a great chess program!
Jun-07-06  LIFE Master AJ: Rybka got "shredded," sorry, I have used that pun before.

On a serious note, I am very surprised that Rybka allowed White such a far-advanced pawn-duo. 18...Rb7? was a terrible move, there was no way that White's Pawn could be allowed to travel to f6.

I have Shredder 9.0, how much does this program differ from that one???

Jun-07-06  Dionyseus: <Life Master AJ> <I have Shredder 9.0, how much does this program differ from that one???>

According to the CCRL list, Shredder 10 is about 36 elo higher than Shredder 9. If they played a 50 game match, the expected score would be 27.5-22.5 in favor of Shredder 10. http://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccr...

In the CCRL Shredder 10 vs Shredder 9 38 game match, Shredder 10 won by a score of 21-17, which is what it was expected to score.

If you click on Shredder 10, it will show you the opponents it has played against, and the scores. For example, Shredder 10 lost to Rybka 1.1 by a score of 11-19.

Jun-10-06  psmith: <Life Master AJ> The interesting question is what would you play as Black on move 18? How do you stop white from playing f6? I agree that 18...Rb7 looks weak, but really, can you criticize it if you can't provide a better alternative?
Jun-10-06  psmith: (CONT) It begins to look as if the f6, Bh6, Ng5 line wins against almost anything, perhaps 18...f6 is forced, but then simply 19. e6 is obviously very strong for White.
Jun-10-06  psmith: An aside: after 19. f6 if Black plays 19...g6 White has a winning plan with 20. Bh6 followed by Qd2, Bg7, Qh6 and Ng5. Fritz 5.32 (all I have) does not seem to be able to find this plan. But it soon recognizes it as winning when it is played against it from this position. I think this plan wins in all lines (and is pretty obvious). How do newer engines fare with this? And am I right?
Jun-12-06  LIFE Master AJ: Looking carefully at some of the previous moves (without a computer), I would have to try and blockade that f-pawn ... maybe as early as move 16 for Black.
Jun-20-06  whatthefat: <LMAJ: 18...Rb7? was a terrible move, there was no way that White's Pawn could be allowed to travel to f6.

Looking carefully at some of the previous moves (without a computer), I would have to try and blockade that f-pawn ... maybe as early as move 16 for Black.>

As <psmith> says, you can't really criticize the 18th move if the mistake is made earlier. As I posted above, I still think that 17...c4 and 17...f5 are worth a look.

Jul-21-06  JustWoodshifting: I used Chessmaster 10th Edition (The King 3.33 chess engine) to take up the game after the 17th move: 18. f4-f5 Rf8-e8
19. f5-f6 d5-d4
20. Be3-f2 Bd7-g4
21. Qc2-d2 g7xf6
22. Q-f4 Bxf3
23. e5xf6 K-h8
24. Qxf3 Q-d5
25. Qxd5 c6xd5
26. c3xd4 c5xd4
27. a2-a4 d4-d3
28. Ra1-d1 Bxf2+
29. Rxf2 R-b4

The time was set to 6 hours per side.
I'll try it out after Black's 16th move next + post it later. I agree that this was not typical Rybka. Thanks for the great commentary so far, guys.

Jul-21-06  psmith: <RandomVisitor> Interesting that you haven't chimed in on this one yet.

I am still interested in this question: after 19. f6 g6, can one of the newer engines find my plan: Bh6, Qd2, Bg7, Qh6, Ng5? Or is there a hidden defense to 20. Bh6 that I am missing?

Jul-22-06  JustWoodshifting: Re: Whatthefat: May-28-06:
My brother & I took your suggestion of 17---c5-c4. We played it out using Chessmaster Tenth Edition on our computers. Result was a draw after the 39th move. Thanks for the suggestion.
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