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|Sep-13-07|| ||zb2cr: Missed, missed, missed. The position seems to call out for a sacrifice on f3, but after looking at both 17. ... Nf3+ and 17. ... Rf3--the latter is more forcing--I was unable to see a forced win. The thread of my board vision snapped after 17. ... Rf3; 18. gxf3, Bf4; 19. Nxd4, cxd4. |
I did not see <dzechiel>'s suggested line of 19. ... Qh4. After some 5 minutes I gave up.
|Sep-13-07|| ||vraja: It is beyond my scope :) It is just like a Tal game. May be we should be given hints such as Tal-like, or Rubinstein-like so as to think along those lines !
Nonetheless, a great game.|
|Sep-13-07|| ||mang00neg: The coup de grace, Ne2, winning the Q is 13 ply deep. After that you have to evaluate that 3 pieces isn't enough for the Q+P. V. hard for thurs. (i didnt get it)|
|Sep-13-07|| ||dzechiel: In response to 19 Nxd4 the line 19...Qg5+ 20 Kh1 Qh4 first suggested by <nolanryan> is superior to my 19...Qh4 in that it mates faster.|
This has happened to me in the past over the board. I will see an elaborate forced checkmate and start down that path, ignoring a much shorter mate. I think the old advice is still good: "When you see a good move, look for a better one."
|Sep-13-07|| ||kevin86: I was on the right track-but took the wrong train! My move was 17...Nf3+. I saw that the white pawn would hinder the defense if forced to capture at f3. I didn't see that in this case,the knight is MORE valuable to the attack than the rook would have been. |
A very sharp attack-I like it.
Note,in the final position black would win with 31 ♔xh1 ♕h3+ 32 ♔g1 ♕h2# The fork at g2 looks tempting,but the mate is better.
|Sep-13-07|| ||YouRang: I mostly missed it I guess. Like others, I was focusing on 17...Nf3+. I noticed that if 18. gxf3, it cracked open black's defense, created a nice barrier of white pawns on the f-file to shield out assistance from other white pieces, and basicall left the king open to the black queen and 2 bishops.|
The problem is that white has some defense: (1) he could play 18. Kh1; (2) he can bring his knight to e2; (3) he can make room by moving his rook to e1.
I couldn't find a plan that worked. I see now that using the rook is better, since it leaves the knight on d4 to prevent Ne2.
Oh well -- great attack by black, and good Thursday puzzle, just beyond my reach today.
|Sep-13-07|| ||mworld: so i also thought the key was Nf3+ and was wrong about it.|
But now when I go look through the played line I think that white could have been better with 19.Nd5 forking the queen and bishop and then taking the bishop on 20. NxBf4.
Or am I missing something obvious?
|Sep-13-07|| ||mworld: Ok i just realized what I was missing. I was evaluating Dzechiel's line and not the line as played.... lol|
so I think this may be the refutation for you Dzechiel, that white would just have captured the bishop on F4 if black hadn't played BxH2+?
|Sep-13-07|| ||mworld: mworld: <dzechiel: threatening mate on h2
20 Re1 Qh3
i think this is where white would have played 20.Nd5xBf4 and not Re1...what you think?
|Sep-13-07|| ||vajeer: I think black could have forced an easier win with:
24.Kh1 Qh5(with the intention of Bf1+)
I think white cannot avoid mate in this line
|Sep-13-07|| ||dzechiel: <mworld: mworld: <dzechiel: threatening mate on h2 20 Re1 Qh3>|
i think this is where white would have played 20.Nd5xBf4 and not Re1...what you think?>
I think the line I was writing about didn't have a knight on d5. I was looking at 19 Nxd4. What do you think?
|Sep-13-07|| ||mworld: ok i get it now, I was mistaken in thinking you were trying to improve on the game as played from 20 onwards to a quicker forced conclusion.|
|Sep-13-07|| ||patzer2: For today's puzzle solution, Black rips open and exploits the weakened White King-side castled position with the demolition of pawn structure sacrifice 17...Rf3!!|
The key winning follow-up is recognizing that the pseudo-sacrifice 19...Bxh2+! sets up the Knight Fork 23...Ne2+ .
The final move, 30...Rh1+!, is a decoy sham sacrifice which initiates a neat mate-in-three combination.
|Sep-13-07|| ||ruzon: No one has considered White "declining" the sacrifice with 18. Qxf3 Nxf3+ 19. gxf3 Bf4 20. Ne2. White might still lose, but I'll guess that at a minimum he could hang on a lot longer.|
|Sep-13-07|| ||fm avari viraf: Black has a chance to rip open White's castled Kingside with 17...Rf3 & White is forced to accept it 18.gxf3 Bf4 19.Nd5 Bxh2+ demolishing the fortress where Black can invade easily 20.Kxh2 Qh4+ 21.Kg1 here I saw ...Qh3 threatening ...Nxf3+ but that will allow White to give away his Queen & will have some play with 24.Rd3. Hence, the text is more precise & comprehensive.|
|Sep-13-07|| ||willyfly: material is theoretically equal - if you're gonna make it happen then you gotta use force|
17...♘f3+ 18 gxf3 ♗h3 19 ♖fe1 ♗d2 20 ♕xd2 ♕g5+ 21 ♔h1 ♕g2#
this is not squeaky clean - if White sees it coming and plays 18 ♔h1 then it's a whole different game. Like maybe 18 ♔h1 ♗f4 19 gxf3 ♗h3 20 ♖g1 ♕h4
let's see what happened
I really thought I had it :-(
|Sep-13-07|| ||Fezzik: I saw
<18...Bf4 19.Nd5!? Qh4 20.Nxf4>
I could not see past <20...ef4 21.Nd4 Qg5+ 22.Kh1 Bh3 23.Rg1> when I don't see a winning attack for Black.
I missed how strong <21...Bxh2!!> is. That was the key move. This puzzle was extremely difficult and either Kluger simply got lucky or calculated a tremendously deep combination to win this!
I don't like to believe in luck, so congratulations to Kluger and to anyone else who saw Black's win after White's best play!
|Sep-13-07|| ||Fezzik: PS: I did see that Black has a draw after 21..Bxh2, but I knew this wasn't a drawing combination.|
|Sep-13-07|| ||TheaN: 3/4
I missed.... Rf3? Well, I was looking at it at 02:00AM after playing a 105min/game game from 20:00PM - ~23:15PM. Can you blame me >_>?
Yeah, I can.... XD, no honestly now; Rf3 is brilliant and I went as many others for Nf3+ which just allows White too many defenses.
|Sep-13-07|| ||ellhares: programs couldnt get ♖f3!!did any one try rybca?what was the result?|
|Sep-13-07|| ||newton296: this is just way too deep for my current ability. didn't get it and still don't .|
u gotta see 13 moves deep here to see that the knight is the stronger attacking piece then the rook.
I figured nf3 and blockade idea but couldn't see far enough ahead to find rf3 !!
great game by kluger !
very tal like combo at the end !
|Sep-13-07|| ||latebishop: I thought this a lovely combination with the visual effect of Black's kingside attack seeming to come out of nowhere. I also noted that in White's best defensive line, 19.Nd5, as in the game,if White defends with 22.Qe3 (to prevent 22...Qg5+) then 22...Ne2+ 23.Qxe2 Qg5+ 24.Kh2 Qg2#|
|Sep-14-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <ellhares: programs couldnt get Rf3!>|
This is incorrect. Hiarcs 11.1SP finds it in about 18 seconds. Give it another 12 seconds (30 seconds total) and it comes up with this line:
17... Rf3 18. gxf3 Bf4 19. Nd5 Bxh2 20. Kxh2 Qh4 21. Kg1 Bh3 22. f4 Qg4 23. Qg3 Ne2 24. Kh2 Nxg3 25. fxg3
which mirrors the game.
|Sep-14-07|| ||eaglewing: <ruzon: About "declining" 18. Qxf3>
There seems to be another decline option: 18. Qxd4 cd (or ed) 19. Nd5 Qf8 (or ...) 20. gf with immediate Nd5 but a protected passed pawn d4.|
Now Black may opt to win a pawn with 20. gf Qxf3 21. Rd3 Qxy (f8/g4/h5/...) or Qxe4 22.Nxd6, but the White figures would be much more activated, so perhaps better avoid 20. gf Qxf3.
|Sep-14-07|| ||Imaslowlearner: < ellhares: programs couldnt get f3!!did any one try rybca?what was the result?> At first it seemd Rybka wasn't looking at the move at all, but once it made it's choice, it came up with a line that was even stronger than the text, selecting 25. .. Qh5, preparing the discovered check to grab a rook for free, or both Rooks for the Bishop, regardless of White's next move.|
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