< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Oct-09-07|| ||ongyj: Too bad for me. I foolishly think of 30.Rb7?? and if 30...Qxb7 31.Bf6 Bxf6 32.exf6 with Qh6-g7# The idea of Rb7 is that after 30...Qxb7 there's no ...Qd8f8 defence.|
|Oct-09-07|| ||ColonelCrockett: I was looking at a way to play Bf6 immediately ... as has been mentioned Bg7 is the "cook" I had to find. (I consider Rb7 before Bf6 and if the rook is taken and the bishop's capture is forced ... a nice queen andpawn mate ... however my calculation ran into the fantastic Bg7 ... then the annoying Bishop had to leave and I noticed the rook on the third rank and found the real answer from there. This is why this is a tuesday puzzle ... it requires much more calculation than yesterdays forking motif.|
|Oct-09-07|| ||heuristic: <MarkThornton: 28...Qxe5, utilising the weakness of White's back rank.>
What's wrong with 28...Nxe5?
White looks stalled ...
and Black seems to be in control
|Oct-09-07|| ||psmith: <MostlyAverageJoe>
I assume your estimate of a slight advantage for White after 28. Nxe6 Qa5 comes from Hiarcs.
Now this is interesting, because Fritz 5.32 sees a slight advantage for Black in this line. Which program is right?
It's at this point that one wants some analysis -- and not just computer-generated lines -- to back up the evaluations.
|Oct-09-07|| ||xrt999: <28...Qa5 (slight edge for black: -0.21)>|
MAJ, I also honed in on blacks blunder, because Kxh7 does nothing except force mate. I liked Qa5 at first glance, it forces white to deal with the imminent threat of Kxe1++. It was my first choice.
<28...Nxb2 (slight edge for white, may be enough to win, +1.28>
I like this move also, it was my second choice, it opens up the c-file, blocks whites rook, and white has big problems on the back rank to deal with. Moves like Rc1+, Bxc5, or Qxc5 are imminent. Black is winning.
|Oct-09-07|| ||xrt999: <I assume your estimate of a slight advantage for White after 28. Nxe6 Qa5 comes from Hiarcs.|
Now this is interesting, because Fritz 5.32 sees a slight advantage for Black in this line. Which program is right?>
In this position after 28.Nxe6, CM plays Bxe5. Black to play, and after 1:40 of thought with a depth of 3/7 gives the game -0.00
I definitely like this position for black. All of whites threats are diminished, black has threats of his own. Black can still play Nxb2 at any time. All of whites play is stopped.
|Oct-09-07|| ||newton296: starting the puzzle at nxh7 would be to hard for tuesday imo. |
That is more a thursday level as you have to see 10 moves ahead to realize the N and Q sacs work out to mate.
also as others have pointed out black can actually mate before white after ...Qa5! not ... Kxh7?? which just leads to a forced mate .
nice game by gross and nice combo to wrap it up!
|Oct-09-07|| ||TheaN: 2/2
30.Qxh8+! with a passive mate in three: Kxh8 31.Rh3+ (Bf6+ Kg8 (Kh6 32.Rh3#) 32.Rh3 ? 33.Rh8#) Kg8 (Kg7 32.Bf6+ Kg8 33.Rh8#) 32.Bf6 ? 33.Rh8#.
All have the same pattern though.
|Oct-09-07|| ||chessmoron: <Chess puzzle EXTRA!
Post your answer here: chessmoron chessforum if you are interested.
White to play and draw:
click for larger view
|Oct-09-07|| ||Crowaholic: Nice easy puzzle. At least it had more plys than yesterday's.|
The inexplicable, suicidal 28. ..Kxh7?? enabled the forced mate (i.e. the puzzle could have started one move earlier, at least on a Wednesday). Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that 28. ..Nxe5 29. Bf4 f6 30. Qxe6+ Qf7! would have saved Black.
|Oct-09-07|| ||vibes43: Good Puzzle. Keep 'em rolling CG.|
|Oct-09-07|| ||kevin86: Here is the Reti-Tartakower theme on the side of the board with an addition wrinkle or two:|
30 ♕h8+ ♔xh8 31 ♗f6+ ♔h6 32 ♖h3# or 30...♔h7 31 ♖h3+ ♔g8 32 ♖h8# or even 30...♔g8 31 ♖h3 and mate next move!!.
|Oct-09-07|| ||YouRang: <MostlyAverageJoe><Now, a more philosophical question:|
28. Nxe6 sets up a mate-in-3 trap, but if the black catches on, he's got only two good responses (Qa5 and Qd7), both resulting in a slight advantage for white (possibly not enough to win).
28. Nxh7 sets up a mate-in-5 trap, but if black does not take the bait, he's got plenty of reasonable responses,
Given the above assessment of the situation, which move do you play?>
I'd opt for 28. Nxh7. (variant 2)
I doubt that 28. Nxe6 would result in a mate-in-3 -- the ill effects of 28...fxe6?? are too obvious. On the other hand, the knight at h7 might be harder bait to resist. (Of course, it depends on the strength of the opponent.)
Besides that, I'm not so sure that 28. Nxe6 is that much better than Nxh7 even if the bait is not taken.
|Oct-09-07|| ||Aurora: A very simple mate! So much so that it qualifies for a Monday puzzle though a mate in four.|
|Oct-09-07|| ||playground player: This is one of those mates that the victim should have, and probably did, seen coming from a mile away. But he couldn't find a way to stop it.|
|Oct-09-07|| ||Men Tal: Maybe it's just me, but through 26 moves it looks as though Black control's the board, as White's Queenside is about to fall to pieces, and while his Kingside forces look strong, after 27. Rb3 Qe7, there no longer appears to be a killer attack for White.
Even as played, 27. .. Qc7, as long as White doesn't capture the Knight, the mating net is not put into effect. After 28. Nxh7, paying either Nxb2 or Nxe5 looks good for Black .
As for the puzzle move, I felt 30. Bf6 Bxf6 31. exf6 was strong enough to threaten mate with 32. .. Qh6 until I realized that 32. Qe5 could be played, winning the f pawn and foiling my mating net as RxQ was not possible due to the back rank mate threat posed by the Rook at c2. The actual result has the same mating pattern as last week's Shantharam v Krishnamoorthy match (Wed. puzzle).
Anyone know the name, if any, of this mating position ?|
|Oct-09-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <newton296: starting the puzzle at nxh7 would be to hard for tuesday>|
It wouldn't be too hard; it would be completely wrong, as there is NO forced anything after Nxh7, only a potential for black's blunder (which he obligingly committed). 29. Bg5+ is the only reasonable other starting point.
<psmith> & <xrt999>The point of my last post was, I hoped, more interesting than the issue of the accuracy of the valuations therein: in a real game, would you go for a trap that is easier to spot, but slightly better for you if the opponent does not fall into the trap, or for a harder-to-spot trap that may end up with a slightly inferior position?
The valuations I gave were just to illustrate the degree of difference. With deeper and more human-oriented analysis, they might be shown to be inaccurate.
<psmith: Fritz 5.32 sees a slight advantage for Black in this line. Which program is right?>
This is a very old version you're using. At low analysis depth, Hiarcs also shows slight advantage for black, but it disappears at deeper plies. My numbers were for 16-ply deep analysis; this is still not good enough to be authoritative (I've seen 20-ply where Rybka and Hiarcs disagree by 0.30 or so), but the indication is pretty good that there is no forced win here.
<xrt999: 28...Nxb2 ... I like this move also ... Black is winning> I'd have to re-run that one deeper, but after white opens up some escape with 29.g4, the moves you mentioned are not that threatening any more - this is just my gut feeling since I am software-deprived right now :-).
<YouRang: I'm not so sure that 28. Nxe6 is that much better than Nxh7 even if the bait is not taken>
Hey, thanks for the consideration of my philosophical question. I think I agree with you in picking Nxh7.
The difference in valuation was something like 0.7 pawn's worth, so indeed, it was not much and perhaps worth the risk (and one would have to be probably a GM (or at least much better than I am OTB - not that this is a high threshold :-) to discern that kind of difference readily, since it is all postional).
|Oct-09-07|| ||chessamateur: For another good example of this theme see Blackburne vs J Schwarz, 1881|
|Oct-09-07|| ||Justawoodpusher: <Confuse:> What do you mean by <Rh3 + first woot cake>? (I'am no native speaker and could not find it in a dictionary)|
|Oct-09-07|| ||patzer2: For today's solution, 30. Qxh8+! leads to a mate in four and provides the expected finish to White's demolition sacrifice 28. Nxh7!?, even though the surprise computer move 28...Qa5! seems to hold for Black (see <MostlyAverageJoe>'s posts). |
For me, the discussion as to whether 28...Nxe6! wins with best play, as opposed to 28. Nxh7!?, is actually more interesting than the routine 30. Qxh8+! finish.
|Oct-09-07|| ||fm avari viraf: After, Black's 28...Kxh7 it's all over for him so he must try something else, e.g. 28...Nxe5 but still White has a strong attack. The simple tactics of sacrificing the Queen 30.Qxh8+ Kxh8 31.Bh6+ Kg8 32.Rh3 followed by 33.Rh8# will definitely widen the mental horizon of Chess players who are not so advanced.|
|Oct-09-07|| ||zb2cr: <Justawoodpusher>,
I believe I can offer a translation of the densely packed slang in <Confuse>'s post.
The "first" conveys that at the time of posting, <Confuse> believed he was the first to comment on the puzzle.
The word "woot" is a generalized expression of celebration in modern American culture.
The final word, "cake", is an online shortening of the ancient AMerican expression, "a piece of cake", meaning that <Confuse> found the puzzle to be quite easy.
|Oct-12-07|| ||Zorts: <Mostly average Joe> The problem with varient 1: 28.Nxe6, Qa5 29.Rd1 white has to deal with the threatened back rank mate. 28...Qd7 seems even better for black. As for varient 2 it's all Greek to me.|
|Jul-03-08|| ||Confuse: <Justawoodpusher> I have no idea. I come back to this comment years later and I haven't got a clue. I don't think I ever will : (|
|Aug-02-08|| ||Confuse: <zb2cr> Hahahaha. Oh man thats good. I didn't even notice that until I just got premium membership and searched kibitizing. Man thats funny; No I think your translation is wrong, but still quite humorous. I look back now and I think; I did Rh3 + first in my variation, and even though it didn't work, I got to shout "hooray (woot cake)" as a sarcastic hurrah. : )|
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