< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Oct-26-08|| ||JG27Pyth: Sundays always seem to generate some controversy -- and this one is no exception, but really, what a truly insane & wonderful game. Expecting humans to play that kind of position with computer accuracy isn't fair IMO. I'm too sick today to be able follow the Kibitzing carefully but just the snippets I've caught have been illuminating. I'm looking forward to Monday...(when I'll have the time and energy to come back and re-look at this problem!)|
|Oct-26-08|| ||RandomVisitor: Rybka has a look at white's 17th move:
click for larger view
<21-ply +1.51 17.Rb1> Nc6 18.Qxe4 Nb4 19.Qf5 Bxf3 20.Qxf3 c2 21.Bxc2 Nxc2 22.Qe4 Nd4 23.e7 Bxe7 24.Qxe7 Qg6 25.Be3 Qf5 26.Qd6 Rfd8 27.f8Q+ Rxf8 28.Bxd4 cxd4 29.Qxd4 Rae8 30.f3 Qa5 31.a3 Re2 32.h4
|Oct-26-08|| ||The Bycote: I believe the score to this game is wrong. I've just looked it up in my database (Megabase 2004) and it gives:|
As I pointed out in my previous post, the reversal of this move order is significant and it seems unlikely to me that two international masters would both fail to realize this at the board.
|Oct-26-08|| ||Woody Wood Pusher: I saw the idea of Ng6 but could not make it work, too hard for me today.|
|Oct-26-08|| ||soberknight: I saw Ne5 and Ng6 but missed Rd3, looking for a queen move. More importantly, I missed the point of Nc6-d4 by Black, blocking the long diagonal to prevent Rh3 Bh6 Rxh6 mate, since the g7 pawn would be pinned and could not recapture.|
|Oct-26-08|| ||DarthStapler: I didn't get it, but at least I understand the idea|
|Oct-26-08|| ||RandomVisitor: This game follows Kluger-Furman, Leningrad 1957 up to move 13, which then finished:|
14. exf7+ Kh8 15. e5 Ne4 16. e6 Qc7 17. Bc2 Qc6 18. Re1 Qxe6 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qxe4 21. Rxe4 Nc6 22. bxc3 1-0
|Oct-27-08|| ||johnlspouge: About best play, Toga agrees with <RandomVisitor>:|
[ply 20/72 time 3:51:08 value +1.20]
17.Rb1 Nc6 18.Qxe4 Nd4 19.Rxd4 Bxe4 20.Rxe4 Qc6 21.Bc2 Qd5 22.e7 Bxe7 23.Rxe7 Rxf7 24.Re3 Qxa2 25.Rxc3 Rd8 26.h3 Qa5 27.Be3 Rc7 28.Ra3 Qb5 29.Ne5 g6 30.Bd3 c4
< <JG27Pyth> wrote: [snip] Expecting humans to play that kind of position with computer accuracy isn't fair IMO.>
It's marvelous to me the courage that a human needs to play such a position. It's something I could not have conceived a year ago. My, how we have grown :)
Good wishes for a speedy recovery, <JG27Pyth>.
|Oct-27-08|| ||kevin86: White's sharp play leads to getting a second queen...and a victory.|
|Oct-27-08|| ||patzer2: For the Sunday Oct 26, 2008 puzzle, White initiates a decisive passed pawn combination with 17. Ne5!!|
However, it would appear from <RV>'s analysis that 17. Rb1!! is as good or perhaps even a better solution.
|Nov-25-08|| ||Soinne: 12. d5! Nice one...|
|Sep-27-16|| ||Xeroxx: That's a lot of queens.|
|Sep-22-19|| ||pdxjjb: Daily puzzle for Sunday, September 22 2019. And, I'm afraid, not a good one.|
According to a modern engine, the game continuation 17. Ne5 is not even among white's 5 strongest moves.
Black has a defense: 17... c4 18. Bxc4 Bxe5 19. e7 Bxh2+ 20. Kh1 (if 20 Kxh2 then 20 ... Qc7+ and white loses the e-pawn).
After 20 Kh1, white is only a little better.
After 16 ... Nf6, white is actually much better, but the best moves are e.g. 17. Re1, Ne1, Qc2, Qe3, and others. But not Ne5 as played, ouch.
|Sep-22-19|| ||landshark: Insane starting position - looks like something I might get into in a blitz game when playing at the absolute top of my game.
Insane game too -
And apparently an insane 'solution' as well.
|Sep-22-19|| ||mel gibson: I didn't have a clue about what to do.
Stockfish 10 disagrees with the text move it says:
(17. Rb1 (♖a1-b1 ♘b8-c6 ♖d1-d7 ♘c6-d4
♘f3xd4 c5xd4 ♗b3-c2 ♕b6xe6 ♖d7xb7 ♘e4-g5 ♕e2xe6 ♘g5xe6 b2xc3 ♘e6-d8 ♖b7-c7
♖f8xf7 ♖c7xf7 ♘d8xf7 c3xd4 ♗f6xd4 ♔g1-f1 ♖a8-c8 ♗c1-d2 h7-h6 ♗c2-f5 ♖c8-d8
♗d2-b4 ♘f7-e5 ♖b1-c1 ♗d4-b6 a2-a4 h6-h5 ♗b4-c5 ♗b6-a5 ♗c5-e3 ♗a5-b4 ♗e3-d4
♘e5-g4 ♖c1-c8 ♖d8xc8 ♗f5xc8 a6-a5 f2-f3 ♘g4-f6 ♔f1-f2 ♔h8-g8 ♗c8-e6+ ♔g8-f8
♗e6-b3 ♔f8-e7) +2.25/35 166)
score for White +2.25 depth 35.
And if the text move is followed
17. Ne5 it calls it a draw.
|Sep-22-19|| ||Walter Glattke: I think, 17.-Qc7 18.Ng6+ hg6 19.Qg4 is mating, e.g. 19.-Ng5 20.Bxg5 Bxg5 21.Qxg5 Qe7 22.Qxg6 or even QxQ B) 19.-cb2 20.Qh3+ Bh4 21.Qxh4#|
|Sep-22-19|| ||patzer2: <pdxjjb: ...According to a modern engine, the game continuation 17. Ne5 is not even among white's 5 strongest moves.>|
Funny how advances in chess engines can change the assessments of a difficult position.
Nearly 11 years ago, we were looking at 17. Rb1 +- (+2.05 @ 38 ply, Stockfish 10) as a better option than the game move 17. Ne5 ⩲. And as you correctly observe, 17. Ne5 ⩲ to = is only good for a slight White advantage after 17...c4! 18. Bxc4 Bxe5 19. e7 Bxh2+ 20. Kh1! ⩲ to = (+0.09 @ 37 ply, Stockfish 10).
According to the assessment of one modern engine (Stockfish 10), it appears there are at least three or four moves which are as good or better than 17. Rb1 +-.
( [Stockfish 10 64] 39:+2.57 17.h4 c4 18.Bxc4 Ng3 19.Qc2 Be4 20.Qb3 Qxb3 21.axb3 c2 22.Rd2 Nf5 23.Ne1 Nxh4 24.Re2 Bf5 25.e7 Bxe7 26.Rxe7 Nc6 27.Re2 Ng6 28.Nxc2 Nce5 29.Rxa6 Rac8 30.Ra5 Bd3 31.Bxd3 Nxd3 32.Be3 Rxf7 33.Ne1 Nxe1 34.Rxe1 Rb7 35.Ra7 Rxa7 36.Bxa7 Nf4 37.Re3 Rc1+ 38.Kh2 Kg8 39.Kg3 )
( [Stockfish 10 64] 39:+2.50 17.Qc2 Nc6 18.Qxe4 Nd4 19.Qe3 Nxb3 20.axb3 Bxf3 21.gxf3 cxb2 22.Bxb2 Bxb2 23.e7 Qg6+ 24.Kf1 Qxf7 25.exf8=Q+ Qxf8 26.Ra2 Bd4 27.Qe4 a5 28.f4 Qg8 29.Rd3 Re8 30.Qc6 Rc8 31.Qf3 g5 32.Qg4 gxf4 33.Qxg8+ Kxg8 34.Rxa5 h5 35.Ke2 Re8+ 36.Kf3 Kg7 37.Rd2 Rb8 38.Ra7+ Kf6 )
( [Stockfish 10 64] 39:+2.36 17.Qe3 c2 18.Re1 a5 19.e7 Bxe7 20.Bxc2 Nd7 21.Bxe4 Rxf7 22.Bxb7 Qxb7 23.Bd2 Bf6 24.Bc3 Qd5 25.Bxf6 Nxf6 26.b3 Rc7 27.Ne5 Re8 28.Rad1 Qb7 29.Rc1 Kg8 30.Rxc5 Rxc5 31.Qxc5 Qb4 32.Qxb4 axb4 33.Kf1 Rd8 34.g4 Re8 35.g5 Nd5 36.Nd3 Rxe1+ 37.Kxe1 Kf7 )
( [Stockfish 10 64] 39:+2.33 17.Rb1 Nc6 18.Rd7 Nd4 19.Nxd4 cxd4 20.Bc2 Qxe6 21.Rxb7 Nc5 22.Qxe6 Nxe6 23.bxc3 Nd8 24.Rc7 Rxf7 25.Rxf7 Nxf7 26.cxd4 Bxd4 27.Kf1 g6 28.Bd2 Rc8 29.Bb3 Ne5 30.Rd1 Ng4 31.Bb4 Bf6 32.h3 Ne5 33.f4 Nc6 34.Ba3 Na5 35.Rd6 Nxb3 36.axb3 Kg7 37.Rxa6 Rd8 38.Ke2 g5 39.Ke3 gxf4+ 40.Kxf4 )
( [Stockfish 10 64] 39:+2.28 17.Re1 Nc6 18.Qxe4 Ne7 19.Qg4 cxb2 20.Bxb2 Bxf3 21.gxf3 Bxb2 22.Rab1 c4 23.Rxb2 Qa5 24.Qe4 Qg5+ 25.Kf1 cxb3 26.Rxb3 Qf6 27.Rb7 Rac8 28.Rd7 h6 29.Qd4 Qxd4 30.Rxd4 g6 31.Rd7 Nf5 32.a4 Kg7 33.Ra7 a5 34.Rxa5 Ne7 35.Rb5 Rc2 36.Rb7 Kf6 37.a5 Ra2 )
P.S.: Now if I can figure out why 17. h4 +-, 17. Qc2 +-, 17. Qe3 +- and perhaps 17. Re1 +- are as good or better than 17. Rb1 +-, I might begin to understand the subtleties of today's very difficult Sunday (17. ?) puzzle.
|Sep-22-19|| ||spingo: I like the 35. Rxe5=Q idea.|
|Sep-22-19|| ||Hercdon: Like others Iím not sure if this is a Sunday-worthy puzzle but I like this game because of the significant portion where one side had two queens. Iíll split the baby and call it a day|
|Sep-22-19|| ||master8ch: White could have finished in a blaze of glory with 32.Qxf5+ Kxf5 33.Qe6+ Kg5 34.Qe7+ Kh5 35.Bd1+.|
|Sep-22-19|| ||agb2002: White has two pawns for a knight.
Black threatens c4, aiming at b2 and f2.
The bishop on f6 prevents e7. This suggests 17.Ng5, threatening Nxe4 and Nxh7, and 17.Ne5, threatening 18.Ng6+ hxg6 19.Qg4.
In the case of 17.Ng5 Nxg5 18.Bxg5 Bxg5 I haven't found anything decisive.
In the case of 17.Ne5, 17... c4 seems to hold for Black (17... Bxe5 18.e7 Nc6 19.exf8=Q+ Rxf8 20.Qxe4 cxb2 21.Bxb2 Bxb2 22.Qe8 wins).
However, I'd play Ne5 since it looks more promising for White.
|Sep-22-19|| ||RandomVisitor: Adding to <patzer2>'s computer analysis, 5 1/2 hours of computer time shows an assortment of good moves, lead by the hard-to-understand 17.h4. |
The move played in the game, 17.Ne5, does not make the top 6 moves due to weak counterplay from 17...c4.
click for larger view
<50/77 5:26:14 +3.61 17.h4 c4 18.Bxc4 Ng3> 19.Qc2 Be4 20.Qb3 Qxb3 21.axb3 c2 22.Re1 Bxf3 23.fxg3 Bg4 24.Bg5 Bxe6 25.Rxe6 Nd7 26.Re2 Ne5 27.Rxc2 Nxc4 28.bxc4 Bxg5 29.hxg5 Rxf7 30.c5 Rc7 31.b4 Rcc8 32.Rd1 Kg8 33.Rd7 Rc6 34.Rc4 Rf8 35.Re4 Rg6 36.Red4 Re8 37.Kf2 Ree6 38.Rf4 h6 39.gxh6 gxh6 40.g4 Rg7 41.Rfd4 Rxd7 42.Rxd7 Kf8 43.Kf3 Ke8 44.Rd6
50/79 5:26:14 +3.27 17.Rd5 cxb2 18.Bxb2 Qxe6 19.Rh5 c4 20.Bxc4 Qb6 21.Rb1 Nxf2 22.Qxf2 Qxf2+ 23.Kxf2 Be4 24.Ba3 Bxb1 25.Bxf8 Nd7 26.Ba3 g5 27.g4 Rb8 28.Be6 Nf8 29.Bb3 Kg7 30.Nxg5 Nd7 31.Be6 Bb2 32.Bd6 Rb6 33.Bc7 Rxe6 34.Nxe6+ Kxf7 35.Nd8+ Ke8 36.Ra5 Nf6 37.Kg3 Kd7 38.Bb6 Ne4+ 39.Kf3 Bf6 40.Nf7 Ke6 41.Nh6 Nc3 42.Rxa6 Bd3 43.Ra7 Nb5 44.Ra5 Bc3 45.Ra6 Be5 46.Bc7+ Nd6 47.Rb6 Kd5 48.Bxd6 Bxd6 49.Nf5
50/83 5:26:14 +2.83 17.Qc2 Nc6 18.Qxe4 Nd4 19.Qe3 Nxb3 20.axb3 Bxf3 21.gxf3 cxb2 22.Bxb2 Bxb2 23.e7 Qg6+ 24.Kf1 h6 25.exf8Q+ Rxf8 26.Ra2 Bd4 27.Qe7 Qxf7 28.Qxf7 Rxf7 29.b4 Rb7 30.bxc5 Bxc5 31.Rd5 Rb1+ 32.Kg2 Bb6 33.Rdd2 Rb5 34.Rxa6 Rg5+ 35.Kh1 Ba5 36.Ra2 Bc3 37.R6a3 Bd4 38.Ra4 Bc3 39.f4 Rd5 40.Kg2 Kh7 41.Ra6 Rd1 42.R2a4 Rd2 43.Kg3 Bd4 44.f3 h5 45.R6a5 h4+ 46.Kg4 Bc3 47.Rc5 Bd4 48.Rd5
50/76 5:26:14 +2.72 17.Re1 Nc6 18.Qxe4 Ne7 19.Qf4 Bxf3 20.bxc3 Bd5 21.Bxd5 Nxd5 22.Qf5 Qc6 23.Bg5 Bxg5 24.Qxg5 Nc7 25.Qf5 Nxe6 26.Rxe6 Qd7 27.Rae1 Qxf7 28.Qxf7 Rxf7 29.Rxa6 Rb8 30.a4 h6 31.f3 Rb3 32.a5 Kh7 33.Ra1 Rd7 34.Ra2 Rxc3 35.Re6 Rc1+ 36.Kf2 c4 37.a6 Ra7 38.Rd6 c3 39.Rc6 Rd7 40.Ke3 Re7+ 41.Kd3 Rd7+ 42.Ke4 Re7+ 43.Kf5 Ra7 44.Kf4 Rf7+ 45.Kg4 Ra7 46.h4 Kg8 47.Kf4 c2 48.Kf5 Kh7 49.h5 Rh1
50/80 5:26:14 +2.50 17.Rb1 Nc6 18.Rd7 Nd4 19.Nxd4 cxd4 20.Bc2 Qxe6 21.Rxb7 Nc5 22.Qxe6 Nxe6 23.bxc3 Nd8 24.Rd7 Rxf7 25.Rxf7 Nxf7 26.cxd4 Bxd4 27.Bd2 h6 28.Be1 g5 29.Bd3 a5 30.Kf1 Kg7 31.Rb7 Kf6 32.Rd7 Bb2 33.Be4 Rc8 34.Bxa5 Ke6 35.Ra7 Bc3 36.Bxc3 Rxc3 37.Ke2 Nd6 38.Bd3 Rc1 39.Ra6 Ke5 40.Ra4 Rh1 41.h3 Rc1 42.Ra7 Ke6 43.Ra6 Ke5
49/72 5:26:14 +2.37 17.Qe3 c2 18.Re1 a5 19.e7 Bxe7 20.Bxc2 Nd7 21.Bxe4 Rxf7 22.Bd2 Bf6 23.Rad1 Rff8 24.Bxb7 Qxb7 25.Qe6 Rfc8 26.Bc3 Nf8 27.Qf5 Bxc3 28.bxc3 Kg8 29.Ng5 Rd8 30.Qf4 Rxd1 31.Rxd1 h6 32.Qc4+ Kh8 33.Nf7+ Kh7 34.Qd3+ Ng6 35.Ne5 Qa6 36.Qe4 Rf8 37.Rd5 Rf4 38.Qb1 Qf6 39.Rxc5 Qf5 40.Qxf5 Rxf5 41.Nd3 Rxc5 42.Nxc5 Kg8 43.Kf1 Kf7 44.Nb7 a4 45.Nc5 a3 46.g3 Nf8 47.Kg2 Ke7 48.Kf3
|Sep-22-19|| ||Cheapo by the Dozen: I gave up after failing to make 17 Ng5 work. I was completely oblivious to the h-file mating threats that make 17 Ne5 more effective.|
|Sep-23-19|| ||patzer2: <Random Visitor> Thanks for the deeper Stockfish analysis of the 17th move alternatives to 17. Ne5 ⩲ to =.|
I suppose 17. h4! +- is strongest because it threatens 18. Ng5 +-, pressuring the overworked Bishop on f6 and the poorly defended Knight on e4
|Sep-23-19|| ||RandomVisitor: After 6...a6 the top White responses are 7.a4, 7.dxc5, 7.Bb3 and 7.Qe2. The computer after 7 hours offers its opinion:|
click for larger view
<49/75 6:47:46 +0.29 7.b3 Nbd7 8.Bb2> Be7 9.dxc5 Bxc5 10.Nbd2 b6 11.a3 0-0 12.b4 Bd6 13.e4 b5 14.e5 Nxe5 15.Nxe5 bxc4 16.Ndxc4 Bxe5 17.Bxe5 Qxd1 18.Rfxd1 Nd5 19.Rac1 f6 20.Bd4 Bd7 21.Nb6 Nxb6 22.Bxb6 Rfc8 23.Rc5 Bb5 24.h3 e5 25.Rd6 Re8 26.g3 Kf7 27.h4 Rac8 28.Kg2 Re6 29.Rxe6 Rxc5 30.Rxf6+ gxf6 31.Bxc5 Bc6+ 32.f3 Kg6 33.h5+ Kg5
49/69 6:47:46 +0.19 7.dxc5 Qxd1 8.Rxd1 Bxc5 9.a3 Be7 10.b4 0-0 11.Nbd2 Nbd7 12.Bb2 b5 13.Be2 Bb7 14.Rac1 Rac8 15.h3 Rxc1 16.Rxc1 Rc8 17.Rxc8+ Bxc8 18.Ne1 Bb7 19.Nd3 Ne8 20.Bd4 f6 21.f4 Nd6 22.Nc5 Nxc5 23.Bxc5 Kf7 24.Kf2 Ne4+ 25.Nxe4 Bxe4 26.Bxe7 Kxe7 27.Bf3 Bxf3 28.Kxf3 Kd6 29.Ke4 g6 30.Kd4 e5+ 31.fxe5+ fxe5+ 32.Kc3 Kd5 33.Kd3 Ke6 34.g4 h5 35.Ke4 hxg4 36.hxg4 Kd6
49/70 6:47:46 +0.13 7.Re1 Nc6 8.dxc5 Qxd1 9.Rxd1 Bxc5 10.Nbd2 0-0 11.a3 Be7 12.b4 b5 13.Be2 Bb7 14.Bb2 Rfc8 15.Rac1 Nd5 16.Nb3 a5 17.Nxa5 Nxa5 18.Rxc8+ Bxc8 19.bxa5 Rxa5 20.Ne5 Bb7 21.e4 Nb6 22.Bd4 Nc8 23.f3 f6 24.Nd7 Rxa3 25.Bxb5 Ba6 26.Bxa6 Rxa6 27.e5 fxe5 28.Nxe5 Rd6 29.Rc1 Rxd4 30.Rxc8+ Rd8 31.Rxd8+ Bxd8 32.Kf2 Bb6+ 33.Kf1 Ba5 34.Nd7 Kf7
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