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Robert Huebner vs Etienne Bacrot
Albert/Berlin m (1998), rd 5, Jun-06
English Opening: King's English. Four Knights Variation Fianchetto Lines (A29)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 1 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-09-08  whiteshark: Better was <40.Rf1 Qe6 41.exd5 Qxd5+ 42.Kh2>


click for larger view

and now after <42...e4 43.a6 d3 44.Qe1>


click for larger view

it's your turn. :D

Aug-27-20  watwinc: <whiteshark> 44 … d2 and 45 … e3 and SF really doesn’t like the White position.
Aug-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: Sac first, think later.
Aug-27-20  Walter Glattke: 47.Kh3 Qxd1 48.a8Q Qh1# / 40.Rf1 is wrong position, 40.exd5 Qxd5+ 41.Kh2 d3 42.Rf1 possible, the second diagram is right, I think, 42.-e4 43.Qe1 my turn 43.-d2 44.Qe2 e3 45.Re1 Bd4 blockade - looks like stockfish, very difficult, so Rf4 attacks a pawn otherwise.
Aug-27-20  Cheapo by the Dozen: What <FSR> said.

The details of the queen incursion were pretty nice, however.

Aug-27-20  mel gibson: I saw the text move in under 3 seconds however
Stockfish is calling it a draw:

39... Rxd5

(39. .. Rxd5 (♖d8xd5 ♖d1-f1 ♕f7-e6 e4xd5 ♕e6xd5+ ♔g2-h2 d4-d3 a5-a6 e5-e4 ♕a1-e1 d3-d2 ♕e1-e2 ♗g7-d4 ♕e2-g2 ♕d5-a2 a6-a7 ♗d4xa7 ♖f1-d1 e4-e3 ♕g2-b7+ ♔h7-h8 ♕b7-e7 ♕a2-b2 ♔h2-g2 ♕b2-g7 ♕e7xg7+ ♔h8xg7 ♔g2-f3 ♗a7-d4 ♔f3-e2 ♔g7-f6 ♖d1-f1+ ♔f6-e5 ♖f1-f8 ♗d4-c3 ♖f8-c8 ♗c3xb4 ♖c8-b8 ♔e5-e4 ♖b8xb5 ♗b4-d6 ♖b5-b3 d2-d1♗+ ♔e2xd1 ♔e4-f3 ♖b3-b7 ♗d6xg3 ♖b7-f7+ ♔f3-g4 ♔d1-e2 ♗g3xh4 ♔e2xe3 g6-g5 ♖f7-g7 ♗h4-g3 ♖g7xg5+ ♔g4xg5 ♔e3-f3 ♗g3-e5 ♔f3-g2 ♔g5-g4 ♔g2-h1 ♔g4-f5 ♔h1-g2 h5-h4 ♔g2-g1 h4-h3 ♔g1-h1 ♔f5-g4 ♔h1-g1 ♗e5-d4+ ♔g1-h1 ♔g4-f3 ♔h1-h2 ♔f3-e4 ♔h2xh3 ♗d4-c3 ♔h3-h4 ♔e4-d5 ♔h4-g5) +0.13/49 131)

score = close to draw + 0.13

But if we follow the text and White
takes the poisoned Rook then:

40. exd5 e4

(40. .. e4 (e5-e4 ♕a1-a3
e4-e3 ♕a3-a2 ♕f7-f5 ♕a2-e2 ♕f5xd5+ ♔g2-h2 ♕d5-c4 ♕e2xc4 b5xc4 a5-a6 d4-d3 a6-a7 e3-e2 ♖d1-e1 d3-d2 ♖e1xe2 d2-d1♕ ♖e2-a2 c4-c3 a7-a8♕ c3-c2 ♖a2xc2 ♕d1xc2+ ♕a8-g2 ♕c2-b3 ♕g2-b7 ♕b3-b2+ ♔h2-h3 ♕b2-e2 b4-b5 ♔h7-h6 ♕b7-f7 ♕e2xb5 ♕f7-f4+ ♔h6-h7 ♕f4-f7 ♕b5-c6 ♔h3-h2 ♕c6-f6 ♕f7-a7 ♕f6-b2+ ♔h2-h3 ♕b2-a1 ♕a7-b7 ♕a1-e1 ♔h3-h2 ♕e1-f2+ ♔h2-h3 ♕f2-e3 ♕b7-f7 ♔h7-h6 ♔h3-h2 ♕e3-e2+ ♔h2-h3) +4.64/40 105)

score for Black +4.64 depth 40

Aug-27-20  Brenin: The move Rxd5 is an obvious candidate, with the two tempi gained (Qxd5+ and discovered attack on White's Q from g7) allowing the central pawns to advance. Then, after Kh3 Qxd1 the threat of Qh1 mate is the killer. But must White take the R?
Aug-27-20  Walter Glattke: Just see 40.Rf1 is gardez, refined, that!
Aug-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: Black has a bishop for a knight.

Black can get two advanced, linked, passed pawns with 39... Rxd5 40.exd5 Qxd5+ and try to make the most of them with d3 and e4, etc.

However, the a-pawn gives White some counterchances.

I'd probably play 39... Rxd5.

Aug-27-20  goodevans: <watwinc: <whiteshark> 44 … d2 and 45 … e3 and SF really doesn’t like the White position.>

I'm not seeing the problem for white there.

After 40.Rf1 Qe6 41.exd5 Qxd5+ 42.Kh2 e4 43.a6 d3 44.Qe1 d2 45.Qe2 e3 we reach this position.


click for larger view

As far as I can see, white can get a draw now by taking the pawn - 46.Qxe3 d1=Q 47.Rxd1 Qxd1 48.a7.


click for larger view

Black must now stop the promotion. Either 48...Qa4 or 48...Qd5 can be answered by 49.Qe7 and the pin on the B means black can't make progress. In the latter case black can prepare to break the pin with 49...Qa8 but white just brings his Q to c7 to prevent that.

An interesting try is 48...Qc2+ 49.Kh3 Qc6, threatening 50...Qh1#, but after 50.Kh2 Qa8 51.Qe7 we're back in the same territory as above.

Am I missing something?

Aug-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: For a minute?
Aug-27-20  stacase: <FSR: Sac first, think later.>

Works for chessgames.com puzzles, doesn't work over the board.

Aug-27-20  TheaN: This is one of those typical Thursday/Friday puzzles where I'm not sure what CG's point is. The color to play wins, yet has apparently initiative but no winning position, and the try is as obvious as the sky is blue.

Yes, I'd play <39....Rxd5> but just because it's the most logical move to play at hand. We discard an outposted piece for a rook that's otherwise just looking at said piece, we increase the value of our fiancetto'd bishop because that's stronger than the opposing rook.

After 40.exd5 Qxd5+ with d3 Black's winning, but I also saw that <40.Rf1!> is playable forcing <40....Qe6> meaning that from the get go White has a few options.

As it seems, it gains an important tempo that saves White, because the rook's now protecting the king rather than the d-file. After <41.exd5 Qxd5+ 42.Kh2 ⩲> Black has initiative but isn't better.

Aug-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <Engine analyses after 39...Rxd5> (part 1 of 3)

<<mel gibson> I saw the text move in under 3 seconds however Stockfish is calling it a draw>

I had the same experience. It was obvious to me that 39...Rxd5 was the only way to push the attack and, like <FSR> indicated, in situations like this, "Sac first, think later". So I would have played 39...Rxd5, expecting 40.exd5, without bothering to do any deep (to me) calculations. I simply would have thought that I had no choice and, if 39...Rxd5 led to an eventual loss, so be it.

FWIW I use Stockfish 11, the latest "official" (non-development) version release. I don't know if you also use Stockfish 11. And, FWIW, "my" Stockfish 11 doesn't necessarily agree with "your" Stockfish evaluations, at d=40 it evaluates both 39...Rxd5 and 39...Qe6 at [0.00], with its 3rd best move, 39...Rd7, evaluated at [+0.75], slightly better for White.

But, as <whiteshark> and "your" Stockfish pointed out, 40.exd5 is not White's best reply, the zwischenzug (sorry, I couldn't resist, I get so few opportunities to use that word) 40.Rf1 was better.

After 38...Rxd5 I get different results with "my" Stockfish than you got with "your" Stockfish.


click for larger view

At d=40 "my" Stockfish's top 2 lines (its "top" 3rd move, 40.Qa2 evaluated at [-18.30] need not be considered further since it loses a piece after 40...Rd7):

1. [-0.46]: 40.Rf1 Qe6 41.exd5 Qxd5+ 42.Kh2 e4 43.a6 d3 44.Qe1 d2 45.Qe2 Bd4 46.Qg2 Qa2 47.a7 (I don't see the purpose of this move. Was it that important to divert Black's bishop from the a1-h8 diagonal?) 47...Bxa7 (Material is now effectively equal, R vs. B+2P, but Black's 2 far advanced passed pawns give it the advantage) 48.Rd1 e3 49.Qb7+ Kh8 50.Qe7 Qb2 (50...Qc2 seemed stronger to me but Stockfish indicates that it leads to a draw by repetition after either (51.Qd8+, 51.Qe8+, or 51.Qe6+) 51.Qf8+ Kh7 52.Kg2 Qg7 (Unfortunately for Black 52...e2 loses to 53.Qe7+ Kh6 54.Qxe2 Qxb4 55.Rxd2) 53.Qxg7+ Kxg7 54.Kf3 Bd4 55.Rf1 Kf6 56.Ke2+ Ke5 57.Rf8 Kd5 58.Rc8 Ke4 59.Rb8 Bc3 60.Rb7 (Unfortunately for White the obvious 60.Rxb5 loses to 60...d1Q+ 61.Kxd1 Kf3 and Black's e-pawn cannot be prevented from queening) 60...Bxb4 61.Rxb5 Bc3 (Now 61...d1Q+ fails to 62.Kxd1 Kf3 63.Rxb4 and the queening of Black's e-pawn can be prevented) 62.Rb8 Bd4 63.Rb7 Kd5 64.Rb5+ Kc4 65.Rg5 Kb3 66.Rd5 Kc3 67.Rd7 Bc5 68.Rc7 Kb4 69.Rb7+ Ka3 70.Rb8 Bd4


click for larger view

And neither White nor Black can make significant progress. Restarting the analysis from this position Stockfish evaluates the resulting positions at [0.00], d=46 after either 71.Rb5, 71.Rb7, or 71.Rd8.

Aug-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <Engine analyses after 39...Rxd5> (part 2 of 3)

<mel gibson> Here is Stockfish's evaluation of the game continuation, 40.exd5:

2. [-4.05]: 40.exd5 e4 (Interesting, Stockfish evaluates the advance of the passed pawns as being better than the immediate recapture – with check – 40...Qxd5+. Perhaps a lesson for at least some of us) 41.Qa3 e3 42.Qa2 Qf5 43.Qe2 Qxd5+ (Only now, when White is able to blockade the advanced center pawns but with the pawns further advanced, does Black capture the Pd5) 44.Kg1 Qc4 45.Kf1 (Per Stockfish Black's 3 connected passed pawns after 45.Qxc4 bxc4 are more powerful than White's 2 connected passed pawns, evaluating the resulting positions at best (for White) at [-60.66] following 46.Kg2. And 46.a6 does not help, at d=49 Stockfish indicating mate in 15 or 23 after 46...e2 and 46...Bd4 respectively) 44...Qxb4 46.a6 (This is still not good enough) 46...Qa4 47.g4 (This smacks of the horizon effect at work, White realizes it is lost and tries gain the initiative at all costs) 47...hxg4 48.Qxg4 Qc4+ 49.Qe2 Qc6 50.Qg4 Qf6+ 51.Ke2 Qxa6 (And only now, with Black's pieces in their best positions and White's king more exposed, does Black capture the Pa6. A good chess player this Stockfish) 52.Rg1 b4+ 53.Kf3 Qb7+ 54.Qe4 Qf7+ 55.Qf4 Qa2 (55...Qxf4+ 56.Kxf4 and at d=46 Stockfish evaluates the position as even, [0.00], after either 56...Bf6, 56...b3, or 56...Kh6) 56.Rg2 Qb1 57.h5 (Charge!) 57...Qf1+ 58.Kg3 Qxf4+ 59.Kxf4 gxh5 (Now, as a result of 57.h5, Black picks up an extra pawn so the queen exchange is winning, Stockfish at d=30 evaluates the resulting positions as no worse than [-23.30] after 60.Kf3, with the evals climbing) 60.Kf3 Kh6 61.Rb2 h4 (Too many pawns for White's rook to handle) 62.Rxb4 h3 63.Rb6+ Kh5 64.Rb5+ Kh4 65.Rb2 Be5 66.Rb6 (I'm not sure why not 66.Rb5 immediately) 66...Kg5 67.Rb5 Kf5 68.Rb6 Bf6 69.Rb2 Bg5 70.Rb5+ Kg6 71.Rb1 d3 (Game over, 2 connected passed pawns on the 2nd rank typically beat a rook, even without a supporting bishop) 72.Ke4 d2 73.Kf3 Kf5 74.Rg1 h2 (Like trying to stop a swarm of African army ants) 75.Rh1 Bf4 76.Rd1 Bh6 77.Rh1 Ke5 78.Rb1 Kd4


click for larger view

And restarting the analysis from this position Stockfish at d=35 indicates mate in 16, 11, and 10 after 79.Ke2, 79.Ra1, and 79.Rh1.

Of course, these are both very long lines and the chances of the game proceeding along those lines is infinitesimally small, but I don't think that there is any way of escaping the conclusion that after 39...Rxd5 that 40.exd5 loses and 40.Rf1 holds. Long live zwischenzugs!

Aug-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <Engine analyses after 39...Rxd5> (part 3 of 3)

<mel gibson> But back to the issue of "your" Stockfish vs. "my" Stockfish. Because of multi-core engine non-determinism it's not unusual, indeed it's the rule, that two Stockfish analyses of the same position carried to the same depth will give different evaluations and even different move rankings (with, of course, different lines) even if they were done on the same computer and the same version of the engine. Sometimes the differences are small but sometimes they are significantly different.

A minor quibble. An evaluation in the range [-0.49, + 0.49] or even [0.00] does not mean that the position is a draw (although that's the most likely result) but that the position offers even chances for both sides. It may be that if the analysis is carried out to a deeper depth that the evaluation might change dramatically, and this doesn't mean that the earlier "equal" evaluation is necessarily wrong. Check my forum's header for my definition of AKC2ML (AylerKupp's Corollary to Murphy's Law) for my tongue-in-cheek description.

Another minor quibble. I don't know which GUI you are using but I personally find it hard to follow your posted analyses without move numbers and with the long notation; e.g .♕f7-e6 instead of 40.Qe6). I personally find the figurine notation and extra "from" square distracting, but others may prefer it. At any rate it's your analysis, so you can post it any way you want to. But please consider adding move numbers since it makes the analysis easier to follow. This is probably a setting in your GUI that you can change and it will probably benefit everyone.

Aug-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<goodevans> Am I missing something?>

See "my" Stockfish analysis above.

Aug-27-20  woodenplayer: <TheaN:...I'm not sure what CG's point is> I'm inclined to give CG a break here. The position may not conform slavishly to puzzle "play and force win" conditions, but there are plenty of interesting themes and lessons here. The initial move is only "sky blue obvious" because CG called it out as a puzzle. And as for the follow up ... well, Huebner missed it. And so did I.
Aug-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  PawnSac: < AylerKupp: I personally find the figurine notation and extra "from" square distracting, ...consider adding move numbers ..it makes the analysis easier to follow >

I'm definitely with you on this one. The extra superfluous stuff also makes the post larger.

< This is probably a setting in your GUI that you can change and it will probably benefit everyone. >

I use Arena and display analysis without move numbers WHILE ANALYZING since more moves can be viewed in the analysis window, but when i paste analysis to the clip board to post here the move numbers are included and i strip out source stuff. It's MUCH cleaner.

Aug-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  PawnSac: < FSR: Sac first, think later. >

Absolutely! One look at the board and my instinct says "Rx px Qx and i get a passed duo and a shot at his exposed king? Oh hell yea! It's a no-brainer" LOL

Aug-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  drollere: i think the analyses by <AylerKupp>, <goodevans>, <mel gibson> may miss the point.

machine analysis is fine when machines are playing chess. but i can't help inferring a certain element of human intimidation in the follow up to Rxd5, in particular white's indecision on pushing the QR pawn and kneejerk K retreats.

<acg2002>'s mere tactical analysis and <FSR>'s aphoristic summary may be closer to the truth, both because they smile away arduous calculation and because they don't imply black had any plan greater than bluff -- a tactically decent bluff, as <acg2002> points out, but a bluff perhaps premised on the fact that white saw his nice pawn fence destroyed in 5 moves and two lethal pawns left marching his way, and fell into a flop sweat.

i also take the indecision and confusion in the machine analyses laid before us as another point of evidence. after all, what do machines know of intimidation?

Aug-27-20  goodevans: <AylerKupp: <<goodevans> Am I missing something?> See "my" Stockfish analysis above.>

I tried very hard to find in your extensive posts to find an analysis of <watwinc>'s <44 … d2 and 45 … e3> but couldn't. I guess I must be missing a lot today.

Aug-27-20  goodevans: <drollere> lf you read my post again you might recognise that it's not a machine analysis but a very human one specifically addressing a line proposed by <watwinc>.

I think my post demonstrates that the line he gave as favourable to black actually leads quickly to a draw. Since that was the one point I was trying to address could you please tell me how I missed it.

Aug-27-20  TheaN: <woodenplayer: The initial move is only "sky blue obvious" because CG called it out as a puzzle.>

Spotting it faster, not because of. Doing a position evaluation at move 39 shows one striking difference: White has the much better minor piece.

Going indepth in the position evaluation, Black's major pieces cannot invade, the central pawns can't move and the bishop's aiming at his own pawns. Meanwhile, White is not facing immediate issues, can push the outward passer and the knight's on an amazing outpost that's immune to the bishop.

RxN comes naturally realizing it removes the minor piece for White vs a slicing bishop, strengthening the central pawns and gaining d5 to boot. At least Black exchanges 5 for 4 in material and a difficult assessable positional advantage. The fact that the resulting position is a drawish is because White himself can improve positionally before taking on d5, levelling strengths when the dust settles.

Of course; I can't deny the 'puzzle' designation makes you eye Rxd5 faster. Not necessarily because of.

Aug-27-20  mel gibson: <
Aug-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member AylerKupp: <Engine analyses after 39...Rxd5> (part 3 of 3)

<mel gibson> But back to the issue of "your" Stockfish vs. "my" Stockfish. Because of multi-core engine non-determinism it's not unusual, indeed it's the rule, that two Stockfish analyses of the same position carried to the same depth will give different evaluations and even different move rankings (with, of course, different lines) even if they were done on the same computer and the same version of the engine. Sometimes the differences are small but sometimes they are significantly different.

A minor quibble. An evaluation in the range [-0.49, + 0.49] or even [0.00] does not mean that the position is a draw (although that's the most likely result) but that the position offers even chances for both sides. It may be that if the analysis is carried out to a deeper depth that the evaluation might change dramatically, and this doesn't mean that the earlier "equal" evaluation is necessarily wrong. Check my forum's header for my definition of AKC2ML (AylerKupp's Corollary to Murphy's Law) for my tongue-in-cheek description.

Another minor quibble. I don't know which GUI you are using but I personally find it hard to follow your posted analyses without move numbers and with the long notation; e.g .♕f7-e6 instead of 40.Qe6). I personally find the figurine notation and extra "from" square distracting, but others may prefer it. At any rate it's your analysis, so you can post it any way you want to. But please consider adding move numbers since it makes the analysis easier to follow. This is probably a setting in your GUI that you can change and it will probably benefit everyone.>

I use Stockfish 11.
The answer you get depends on how long you run the engine. I use Arena as my GUI.

I don't put in move numbers except
for what the answer shows.
I'm not paid to do that -
what I offer is for free -
and if anyone
wants to work it out the information is there.

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