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R S Luscombe vs Raymond Keene
Wernick Cup (1962), Dulwich ,England, rd 6, Jun-13
Philidor Defense: Hanham Variation (C41)  ·  0-1



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Dec-31-07  TrueBlue: and I chose Qh6, Qh8 is way too passive :)
Dec-31-07  YouRang: <MostlyAverageJoe><One is faster, the other is flashier, that's all.>

It may be more precise to say that the Qh6 mate-in-2 variant is "shorter" rather than "faster".

In terms of actual clock time, the Rh1+ mate-in-3 might actually be faster, since there is (arguably) less calculation involved.

Dec-31-07  Riverbeast: This guy Luscombe played like an 'A' player (tops)
Dec-31-07  crazydotaplayer: 12th move was a mistake 4 white he should of played g3 black cant take the h3 pwn but if they do the white bishop goes to h5 attackin the queen and the knight from h2 go to g4 and black must move the knight to f4 2pwns 4 a piece.Fritz gives 2,14 for white
Dec-31-07  whitebeach: <patzer2: Indeed, it does appear White missed a winning trapped piece tactic with 12. g3! After 12. g3! Nxh3 13. Bg4! . For example, after 13...Nf6 14. Bxc8 Rxc8 15. Ng4 Nf4 16. gxf4 gxf4 17. Nxf6+ Qxf6 18. Qf3 White is up a piece with a clear win in sight.>

Yes, I think you (and black knight) are right. I didnít see 15. Ng4! And I donít see any good answer.

Dec-31-07  A.G. Argent: Have a great '08, y'all. Be cool tonight.
Dec-31-07  deadlysin: saw it as fast as a blink
Premium Chessgames Member
  fm avari viraf: It's mate in three, sacrificing the Rook on h1 & time to wish you guys Happy New Year 2008!
Premium Chessgames Member
  amadeus: Real easy. All's well that ends well. A Happy New Year.
Dec-31-07  dzechiel: <YouRang: In terms of actual clock time, the Rh1+ mate-in-3 might actually be faster, since there is (arguably) less calculation involved.>

I think this is an important point you have made. The shorter mate IS NOT the faster mate. Even though the the variation with the rook sacrifice is a move longer, it is much easier to calculate, therefor it is faster and safer than the two move variation.

This is why I also would play the rook sacrifice over the board, there is much less chance of making a mistake (you know for certain what each of white's moves will be).

When the game is over and you have all the time in the world for postmortem analysis, it's easy to say the shorter mate is better, but when the game is under way, the safer mate is the way to go.

Dec-31-07  MostlyAverageJoe: <dzechiel> & <YouRang> Generally, I agree -- and the lack of any expressed opinion as to which move is "better" shows a restraint that normally is not present in my posts :-)

In fact, the rook sac was the first line I saw myself, and only then I looked at a possibility to deliver a mate in fewer moves.

Still, even on Monday level, I think that one should be expected to see both variants, no?

I am curious whether quiet killing moves are more common in chess games than flashy sacrifices, or vice versa. Any opinions?

Dec-31-07  Steve Case: Were it my game, I would have moved the queen to the "H" column as I could see that white pawns blocked anything White could have done to stave off the inevitable mate that was about to happen. Someone up thread said something about a Rook sacrifice just for the theater. Well OK, but the Queen does it in two moves and the Rook sac takes three. Did I get that count right?
Dec-31-07  zb2cr: <Riverbeast> (and others commenting on Luscombe's poor play).

Note that Keene himself was 14 at the time of this game. Perhaps Luscombe was also a young player? If so, maybe we shouldn't be so quick to condemn him.

Dec-31-07  ALEXIN: I think a practical player would prefer the surer solution (although longer).
Dec-31-07  dzechiel: <MAJ: I am curious whether quiet killing moves are more common in chess games than flashy sacrifices, or vice versa. Any opinions?>

I suspect that quite killing moves are overlooked more often than the flashy sacrifice, precisely because they are typically more difficult to calculate.

When making the "quiet" move, almost by definition it means that your opponent is not limited in any way in legal responses, while the flashy sacrifice is frequently administered with check, necessarily limiting the opponent's replies.

Dec-31-07  Sydro: It is true that it is faster to spot the rook sacrifice which I looked at as the first move and it is simple. Then I thought if it really is need and took awhile to look what white could do if I would choose Qh7 or Qh6 I found no defense but it did take me slightly longer to see that compared to that instant rook sacrifice.
Dec-31-07  DarthStapler: Got it except I thought Qh6+ instead of Qh8+
Dec-31-07  GannonKnight: Actually, 22. ... Qh6+ would have been less lifting for Black as he would have needed to move his Queen the fewest spaces, saving muscles in his arm. :)
Dec-31-07  Sularus: I saw the Qh7 solution.

I did not see the rook sac.

Goodbye 2007.

Dec-31-07  Terry McCracken: < Riverbeast: This guy Luscombe played like an 'A' player (tops) >

I agree, and probably less. It looked liked a C or D player with White.

Dec-31-07  zenpharaohs: Well I got the mate

21 ... Rh1+
22 KxR Qh1+, Qh2+, or Qh3+
23 Kg1 Qh2#

For some odd reason Shredder won't start on the computer so I can't see if there is some weird thing I missed but I don't think there is anything odd.

Dec-31-07  zenpharaohs: Oops that should read

21 ... Rh1+
22 KxR Qh8+, Qh7+, or Qh6+
23 Kg1 Qh2#

And what do you know. I can't get the engine fired up and I missed the other mating line.


Dec-31-07  black knight c6: I simply 'lol' at almost 3 pages of discussion about whether the rook sac or queen move is 'better'. Any mate is beautiful in my opinion because it is the culmination of your out-thinking of your opponent, the final position set in stone that you've bettered him on the chess board one way or another. Whichever way you get it. Its interesting though to see how much people have to say about a tiny and rather inconsequential change in move order to inevitable mate :) Such is the life of a chess follower...
Jan-01-08  piever: <black knight c6: < <piever> (btw, 12 g3 is obviously wrong, that knight is just too strong to be chased away) > Would you be so kind as to provide a line(s) showing why chasing and WINNING the knight is so wrong? I'm thoroughly puzzled.>

It looks like you don't know nimzo's style of annotating games... I was only answering to the amusing post by <An Englishman> and my whole post was only a joke...

Sorry for the late answer and for the misunderstanding.

Happy New Year!

Jan-04-08  black knight c6: <piever> Haha, sorry for my unusual lack of sense of sarcasm...
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