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Team White vs Team Black
"Shuffle Board" (game of the day Mar-05-2008)
Fischerandom Team Game (2007) (unorthodox),, Oct-04
Chess variants (000)  ·  0-1



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 1 OF 109 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Oct-04-07  kellmano: team black I am strongly infavour of 1. Ne3, then 2.0-0, just 'cos we can.
Oct-04-07  Manic: team white Awww we got a very similar position to normal chess. I was hoping for a much more different setup. At the moment I think our main candidate moves are d4,g4 or Nc3, with a particular focus on d4 and g4.
Oct-04-07  whatthefat: team white Well well, this looks interesting. My immediate inclination is toward 1.d4 or even 1.g4. Ideally, it would be nice to castle kingside, and play g3 for our automatically fianchettoed bishop, which makes the f1-knight a bit of a problem. I guess my ideal set-up would involve a double fianchetto, with pawns on d4 and c4. Our troublesome knight can then occupy either d2 or e3, like so:

click for larger view

One of the interesting features of the starting position is the amount of pressure each side can put on their QP5.

Oct-04-07  whatthefat: team white I've just noticed that when I do position set-up in Fritz for the initial position, it can no longer consider kingside castling, since it doesn't apply the Fischerandom rules. It has a 'Shuffle Chess' option, but this seems to be different to Fischerandom, in that rooks need not be either side of the king, and so there is no castling. So, I guess I'm engine-free until both sides have catled. :)
Oct-04-07  Manic: team white Maybe we should play c3 or e3 somewhere to protect our d4 pawn because it could come under serious pressure through black's fianchettoed bishop. My Fritz has c3 played in most of its lines in the starting position, probably expecting heavy pressure against the d4 pawn
Premium Chessgames Member
  JointheArmy: team white d4 is probably the best move here - if that even exists - since from the e-file to the a-file is the exact same as in a regular chess game.

However, I really like how g4 looks and it would probably lead to a more interesting game than d4 would.

Oct-04-07  whatthefat: team white I guess the question we have to answer is: if 1.g4 d5, do we have any better than 2.d4? If not, we probably shouldn't play 1.g4.
Oct-04-07  ganstaman: team black I hate upside down boards :(

<kellmano> Don't lie to yourself like I tried to -- we have the black pieces!

Oct-04-07  ganstaman: team black By the way: Fischerandom Chess Generator

From the first page:

<Sneaky: Some differences I've noticed in Fischerandom, regarding the openings:

Sometimes you can have a "bad bishop" in a corner blocked in by a pawn, which is far worse than any bishop you've ever seen in conventional chess. Don't let that happen to you!

The outlandish plan on moving a pawn in front of a rook then transfering the rook to the 3rd rank, even in the opening, rarely works in normal chess. But in FR you can often get away with it!

I find that d4 or e4 is almost always a sensible opening move, and if the opponent attempts a "strong point" defense (meeting d4 with d5, or e4 with e5) then attacking their pawn with c4/f4 is almost always a gambit worth considering.>

Premium Chessgames Member
  Sneaky: team black I justed signed up and I'm flattered to see ancient posts of mine quoted!

Anyhow glad to be here... I guess we got a lot to talk about. Fascinating how much this is like normal chess. Opening Theory for normal chess won't apply, but it might be full of metaphors for this type of position.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Sneaky: team black Just to clarify... we can castle on move 2, can't we?

E.g. 1.e4 Ne6 2.d4 O-O

That's legal, isn't it? No need to get that bishop out of the corner before we castle?

Oct-04-07  Manic: team white 1.g4 d5 2.e4 is a possibility, although 2...d4 does look annoying. Perhaps after that c3 or expanding on the kingside. But your probably right in that d4 is the best answer, so I guess 1.d4 is better.
Oct-04-07  whatthefat: team white I must say, I don't see the sense in 1.e4, since it obstructs our h1-bishop. Is the idea to follow up with Ne3? It doesn't look right to me.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sneaky: team black There's a lot to consider here. I think a good motto might be "think first, then speak." I'm one to talk... :-P but I'll do my best, I promise ;-)
Oct-04-07  realbrob: team white A Fischerandom game... Interesting. Though for a crazy moment when I first saw the board I thought that we had picked up the normal starting position - that would have been really bad luck.

I'm interested in Fischerandom but I don't know a lot about it... So, if I got it right we can castle kingside and our g1 rook will be in the "normal" f1 position, is it correct?

1.d4 is a pretty natural move, it sets a foot in the centre of the board and frees the DSB diagonal, as usual. If we find a good place for our f1 knight we can easily go for a sort-of-QGD system in which we play d4, c4, Nc3, g3, Nf3, O-O.

Can we use engines as well?

Oct-04-07  realbrob: team white <Nf3> Of course I meant Ne3, unless we want to bring it to f3 via d2
Oct-04-07  arifattar: team white When I saw the position my immediate reaction was 1.g4. But I guess <whatthefat>'s right. g3 and a 0-0 looks better.
Oct-04-07  VargPOD: team white d4 is my pick.

f1 knight does look a bit akward, but can find a place in d2 supporting c4 and e4.

<Type of challenge: Team Game Rate of play: 2 days per half-move
Type of voting: OPEN
Rollover time: 16:00 (USA/Eastern)
Fischer Random Chess: YES
Current number of players: 10 vs 9
Are computers allowed? YES
Whose move is it currently? WHITE>

Oct-04-07  Hesam7: team white Hi everyone (except Zoidberg).

Can somebody explain the castling rules properly?? Do we have to move our bishop to castle K-side??

Oct-04-07  whatthefat: team white <Hesam7>

The rules are described here: Fischerandom Chess Generator

For castling kingside, our king ends up on g1, rook on f1. The bishop can stay on h1.

Oct-04-07  Hesam7: team white thx <whatthefat>.

Alright what is wrong with this plan 1 g4 2 Ng3 3 O-O. I think the same plan with g3 is worse because it takes away the natural square for the f1-knight.

Oct-04-07  whatthefat: team white Looking again at the position, the f- and h-pawns are potentially very weak once the f1-knight moves. Probably both sides will castle before this can be exploited, but it's still an idea to consider.

One more random thought: I wonder whether this starting position is more or less drawish than the standard one? While most believe the standard starting position is a theoretical draw, I imagine some starting positions would be theoretical wins for White.

Oct-04-07  whatthefat: team white <Hesam7>

Well, after 1.g4 d5, Black threatens 2...Bxg4 if 2.Ng3. Also, wouldn't our king be feeling a bit too much of the breeze with the g-pawn advanced so far? Black could consider playing ...h5 at some point to pry open a file for their rook.

Oct-04-07  kellmano: team black <Sneaky: Just to clarify... we can castle on move 2, can't we?>

Yes indeed. And because we can i reckon we should.

Oct-04-07  Hesam7: team white <One more random thought: I wonder whether this starting position is more or less drawish than the standard one? While most believe the standard starting position is a theoretical draw, I imagine some starting positions would be theoretical wins for White.>

My first thoughts! I even asked myself could there be a configuration that is a theoretical win for Black?? I am sure that there some in which White wins since in some configurations the first move advantage is pretty big.

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