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Viswanathan Anand vs Magnus Carlsen
Morelia-Linares (2008), Linares ESP, rd 10, Mar-01
Sicilian Defense: Lasker-Pelikan. Sveshnikov Variation Chelyabinsk Variation (B33)  ·  1/2-1/2

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 13 OF 13 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-01-08  mindkontrolle: good point...
Mar-01-08  frogbert: hehe, yeah, carlsen is really a coward and the prime example of a draw happy fellow... :o) in the first 9 rounds he had 6 decisive results, and no game shorter than 39 moves. together with shirov and topalov, he's the player least likely to play a short draw - if you check out the 'fighter rating list' for 2007, you'll see that carlsen even places ahead of topalov ( http://members.aon.at/sfischl/sd200... ):

relevant "chicken factors" - or short draw factor, in fischl's words - the higher number, the bigger chicken :o)

<factor> total (white/black)

shirov: 0.7 ( 0.3/ 1.1) 96 games
carlsen: 1.1 ( 1.3/ 1.0) 100 games
topalov: 2.1 ( 3.8/ 0.2) 51 games
leko: 3.2 ( 3.0/ 3.5) 53 games
aronian: 3.7 ( 5.1/ 2.3) 71 games
anand: 5.1 ( 6.4/ 3.9) 55 games
ivanchuk 5.7 ( 6.9/ 4.6) 81 games
radjabov: 6.9 ( 9.4/ 4.9) 48 games

while leko plays a notable number of draws, he doesn't play many very short draws. with white, even topalov plays more short draws than leko. topalov's low short draw factor with black, either means that he tries very hard to win his black games, or that people try very hard to beat him with white. probably it's a little of both. :o)

not surprisingly, we see that aronian is quite willing to play a short draw as white, while not quite comparable to the mega-drawer radjabov, who drew 24% or about 1/4 of his white games in 20 moves or less in 2007. you could be nominated for a peace prize going like that!

to some it might be surprising, but it's about twice as likely for anand to play a short as it is for leko, while shirov almost never plays short draws with the white pieces. of the players above, only shirov and leko are more likely to play short draws with black than with white. for shirov, this fact should be taken lightly on, since he practically doesn't play short draws at all. comparing leko's 3.2 (3.0/3.5) to mister solid with black himself, kramnik 4.6 (1.9/7.4) allows you to place things in perspective, but interestingly all of anand, ivanchuk and radjabov play more short draws than kramnik - who often goes to great lengths to win his white games.

like shirov, carlsen usually plays his games until they are properly over, this way or another. any criticism for short draws regarding carlsen, is generally out of place - he's a role model to learn from for most of the elite players in this respect. like others have pointed out - black versus anand, dang equal position and the memory of 7 hours of hard work the day before, is a good occasion to accept a draw. unlike aronian and partly anand, who both have conserved energy with most of their white games, carlsen has played long games every round until now.

carlsen will never be boring - not in 10 years, minimum. :o)

Mar-01-08  mindkontrolle: Coward? Don't project yourself, I never called Carlsen or anyone a "coward". What I said is a fact, it is a trend of the ages, a Zeitgeist. Again, don't project yourself, as <you vs yourself> informed there is nothing peculiar about the short draw...
Mar-02-08  Davolni: <frogbert> I never asked you anything, but I hope you won't refuse.

Can you please tell me what percentage of his 24 hour day is Carlsen spending in (for example) shower, or restroom???

I am sure you can come up with a formule to calculate EVEN that.

Mar-02-08  Atking: <comparing leko's 3.2 (3.0/3.5) to mister solid with black himself, kramnik 4.6 (1.9/7.4) allows you to place things in perspective, but interestingly all of anand, ivanchuk and radjabov play more short draws than kramnik - who often goes to great lengths to win his white games.> Very interesting. So much prejudice on Kramnik. Put out the 2 years when he was objectively sick and you got both a better fighter with a better performance. Still I agree that player physical condition is under his own responsability some times is not. Keep on <frogbert> mathematics don't lie.
Mar-02-08  Voltaic: <Very interesting. So much prejudice on Kramnik. Put out the 2 years when he was objectively sick and you got both a better fighter with a better performance.>

come on, even if Kramnik is on top of the excellent <frogbert's chicken factor> list, there's no other player so readily to avoid complications and going into unknown territory as him.

i think that the prejudice Kramnik receives comes precisely from this, most people want to see a real battle, not a boring petroff and safe lifeless positions.

just take a look at all the praise Carlsen gets at his young age. chess fans see in him a fighter, a player that's not afraid to take risks and goes for all if he can do so.

that's the main difference that puts all those players above in a separate list from Kramnik, they are bolder and play more interesting games, even Leko is always ready to fight.

now you're right, Kramnik has been sick and hasn't been the same player of past times. as <frogbert> points out, he needs a lot of effort to win his white games, which isn't precisely the best given his present health.

the best for chess wd be to have him fully recovered and see if he can be as sharp as once was and not to depend on long and prepared ultra-dry positions. otherwise sooner or later the young guns are going to threaten his lifelong No. 2 position, Carlsen could be already very near of him.

Mar-02-08  outsider: mates, have you ever EVER ever experienced what it means to play a seven-hour game the previous day? yes/no? somebody bases their prejudices on the best 50 games by Tal ignoring his some other 200 absolute rubbish games and then takes one short game out of the context to say that anand and/or carlsen is/are the evil(s) of the chess...
Mar-02-08  Atking: <There's no other player so readily to avoid complications and going into unknown territory as him.> Again a radical prejudice. Just a look on Kramnik vs Morozevich in Mexico WChamp where Kramnik sacrifice a N to get an incredible position. I'm pretty sure that Anand will not play in that way against such player. He is too practical. But Ok I like Anand too. The difference is not, as so many say, that one is playing boring chess. That's insulting to Kramnik and to chess. I prefer the way which Morozevich put the matter. Kramnik is a perfectionnist (Which could be a fiction and his error). He want to know what he does. That's not boring. I enjoy it a lot. And I'm pretty sure that many top GMs (Except Topalov) enjoy the way he plays. Try yourself to find the next move (Of course without computer) of a Kramnik's game is not an easy task (More easier are some Tal's N sacrifice). That's why he is very strong. Indeed the same debate from the romantic about Steinitz's new approach. To defend a position is as well courageous as to attack. You should be able to do both on the top. Indeed Kramnik's result are as good as Anand's. And I'm pretty sure that globally their games ended in a nearly same number. I'm not sure about Carlsen. I mean about style (About his chess potential I praise it already 2 years ago when many said that Karjakin was more mature. I saw and still see Carlsen as the next world champion) But I'm pretty sure Carlsen has a great respect on the way Kramnik is playing. Carlsen style is still not definitive and that's good. He still tries to play in many ways. Eventually the way Kramnik is playing too...
Mar-02-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Open Defence: just watching Ivanchuk-Topalov yesterday tired me out no end.. so I can guess that actually concentrating OTB for that long would be excruciating
Mar-02-08  Bobsterman3000: <frogbert> The "Chicken Factor" ??

I like the concept. Tell us more. Why not start on a book?

Mar-02-08  mindkontrolle: it's like feeding a loaf of bread to a gang of pigeons...
Mar-02-08  frogbert: bobsterman3000, the concept of "chicken factor" was originally an idea from mig, i think. stefan fischl formalized it, and gave it the more sober name "short draw factor" - and it is stefan fischl who updates and calculates the "fighter list". i merely quoted his data. search for 'stefan fischl' and 'chess' on google, and you can't go wrong. :o)
Mar-03-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: Post game interviews with both players:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3h3...

Seems to confirm the impression that Anand was out-prepared by Carlsen this time.

Mar-03-08  sheaf: <I'm pretty sure that Anand will not play in that way against such player. He is too practical.> ?? good sense of humor you have..
Mar-03-08  whatthefat: <chancho: <Abejorral> You remind me of <Topzilla/Bufon>.>

Snap.

Mar-03-08  whatthefat: <outsider: mates, have you ever EVER ever experienced what it means to play a seven-hour game the previous day? yes/no?>

The fact is, the people here who are most willing to criticise top GMs, have probably never even seriously competed in OTB tournaments. Until you can directly relate to the competitive situation, you're in no place to be passing judgement.

Mar-03-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <Davolni><Atking> As far as I can see, <frogbert> crunches numbers and posts the results, whatever they are. Better than the various tiresome prejudices that passes for analysis of the leading players among many posters here. I love Kramnik, but it's a fact that he plays a lot of quick draws with Black and generally seems to be aiming for a draw from the first move. And it's been that way a long time; it's not caused by his illness.
Mar-03-08  acirce: <<frogbert> crunches numbers and posts the results, whatever they are. Better than the various tiresome prejudices that passes for analysis of the leading players among many posters here.>

I think that is exactly <Atking>'s point.

<I love Kramnik, but it's a fact that he plays a lot of quick draws with Black and generally seems to be aiming for a draw from the first move.>

No "but" for me. A lot of players simply aim to draw with Black most of the time, and there is nothing wrong with that. If you can get your draw in 20 moves rather than 40, achieving your aim while hardly breaking a sweat, all the better for you. I think most of it is just because White players give up their own winning attempts earlier against Kramnik than against others, either because they have to or just out of respect.

Mar-03-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <Atking> <acirce> is right, it appears that I misread your post. Sorry.

Mar-07-08  PinnedPiece: Hard to believe that at move 22 both of these players can see only kings on the board way down the line somewhere.

But, Obviously, they can.

Mar-07-08  PinnedPiece: And yet in this game

Carlsen vs Anand, 2008 (earlier in the match)

Carlsen fought on and on with B vs R??!

My point: This level of chess looks affected as much by business decisions as by chess decisions.....maybe more so.

Mar-08-08  mindkontrolle: until you have competed...... bla bla bla.... you sound like a nagging mother. the level of what??? this is not the ultimate era for chess. get over it. why dont you become pro????? dont you have the mind for it??????
Mar-08-08  waustad: What I feel most now seeing these games in real time is the temporal aspect. I've been on the only board left in a weekend Swiss trying to hold against a 2100 vs my 1700+ so I have a slight clue, but the strain of playing that many games against the best in the world must be staggering. What looks like a boring draw afterwards is often gripping during the game itself.
Mar-08-08  PinnedPiece: <mindkontrolle: until you have competed...... bla bla bla.... you sound like a nagging mother.> Holy cow mindcontrolle, what's with all the venom? <the level of what???> I think I mean, Where people are trying to make a living playing chess.

< this is not the ultimate era for chess. get over it.> ???

< why dont you become pro????? dont you have the mind for it??????> I haven't become a pro in a lot of sports, actually: including soccer, golf, bowling, cycling, sumo wrestling, curling, poker, bridge, Go (http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/index-e....) world of warcraft, stunt flying, Xtreme Sports bicycle tricks, NASCAR---- in fact none......but you're quite right: I could NEVER make it as a "pro" chess player either!!!!

Nevertheless, some of these games appear to have more than just chess logic involved.

Apr-17-08  freeman8201: I heard from others that this old line is becoming standard again. Sveshnikov, Lasker and who is Pelikan? This line avoids the English attack and puts black on his terms? is this the logic behind the early e5? And can any tell me if the Najdorf and the Dragon are obsolete? Meaning are they not good for black?
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