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Magnus Carlsen vs Levon Aronian
Amber Tournament (Rapid) (2008) (rapid), Nice FRA, rd 4, Mar-18
Spanish Game: Berlin Defense. Berlin Wall J. Rogers Line (C67)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
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Mar-19-08  Jazzer32: Ipecac, this is RAPID game (played on real board), NOT BLINDFOLD game (played on computer).
Mar-19-08  Ipecac: <Jazzer32: Ipecac, this is RAPID game (played on real board), NOT BLINDFOLD game (played on computer).>

Suddenly, thanks to you, I uderstand

I deleted the message to avoid confussion.

Mar-19-08  hovik2003: Because I like Carlsen, I won't say anything!, to me he is still a kid, so no hard feelings!

Just imagine if Aronian would have done this against Carlsen!, it was gonna be allover in a flash and I am sure you could even read about it in New York Times next day!

Mar-19-08  lisyaron: I suppose it is too early to say anything, especially when the video has not been released. It may have been a little harsh for me to have used the word 'cheating' above as well. However, it brings to mind what Henrik Carlsen (Magnus' father) posted in November last year at http://blog.magnuschess.com/1194691...

"For Norwegians the intention of your actions is the important thing. As long as you're not intending to do wrong you are considered innocent, while if you purposely try to cheat your opponent you are morally guilty despite not being caught or punished."

I just find it a little difficult to believe that a player wouldn't know if they had released hold of a chess piece or not. Under time or positional pressure, one's senses are always keener from the adrenaline rush - releasing a piece would have been evident! Given Magnus' swift resignation following the arbiter's decision, I think he knew - though (as mentioned above) it is difficult to speak at this point in time.

No hard feelings to Magnus, who is a great player - but quite an interesting report!

Mar-19-08  percyblakeney: It's good that Aronian saw what happened, in Kasparov's case people complained about him being a dirty cheater and miserable human being and much worse things than that at least a decade later just because of that game against Polgar. :-)

If Carlsen also had gotten away with it and it had been easier to see on the video than in Kasparov's case (where I think it was a question of 0.04 seconds) the story would surely be repeated now and then over the upcoming years...

Otherwise I think both cases just were the question of quick (but not quick enough...) reactions where you think your hand never left the piece.

Mar-19-08  acirce: <But did he apologize afterwards? If he did I never talked about it it's not easy to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Basically if Carlsen says he wasn't really sure if he released the rook that's fine. If he obviously tried to take back a move but admits it and apologizes that's ok too, even if I expected more of him. But if he acts as if it was his God given right to take back blunders then yes, he probably will be judged just as harshly as Kasparov was.>

If Carlsen apologized afterwards? I don't know, and your next sentence I don't understand.

I don't think Kasparov has ever acted as if it was his God given right to take back blunders. At least I know about no such evidence. There are other cases where he's acted like the rules only applies to mortals and not to him but when and how did he do that in this case?

Mar-19-08  Knight to f6: Well, you certainly don't see this kind of thing in GM tournaments very often!

I think in this case Carlsen is more to blame than Kasparov--I often see people castle the wrong way, but not many cheat like Carlsen!

On the other hand, it could have just been a mistake in the heat of battle. Perhaps Carlsen was prepared to dispute his move just because of the shock it caused. After all, he's only 17 years old.

As for the case with Gazza, I don't think he should be judged this harshly. The fuss mainly comes from the fact that Kasparov won. Had he lost to Polgar, the affair would have been forgotten almost immediately (although the loss would still be a sensation).

Mar-19-08  just a kid: Carlsen's probably thinking Ra3 perfect!<he lets go of the rook>Oops!
Mar-19-08  Akavall: <I think in this case Carlsen is more to blame than Kasparov>

Why?

At best they are guilty of the same thing. However, I think that the fact that Kasparov got away with his cheating; it was a more serious game, classical time controls, and that Kasparov was a World Champion during the incident make Kasparov more guilty.

Mar-19-08  Knight to f6: But the difference is that Kasparov's was a much more common and less serious error. I don't see how people can compare castling by moving the rook first to trying to redo a blunder.
Mar-19-08  Swede: About 2:40 into the fourth round video report on http://www.amberchess2008.com/ you can hear Carlsen comment on his blunder.
Mar-19-08  Akavall: <Knight to f6><But the difference is that Kasparov's was a much more common and less serious error. I don't see how people can compare castling by moving the rook first to trying to redo a blunder.>

Kasparov's move had nothing to do with castle; he moved a knight to one square, but then moved it to another, though the blunder was less severe than Carlsen's.

Judit Polgar vs Kasparov, 1994

Kasparov's initial move was 36...Nc5

Mar-19-08  jmi: http://blog.magnuschess.com/

In the second game Magnus got a small but comfortable advantage as white and was trying to make progress in the rook and bishop endgame when the unfortunate incident took place. Magnus moved his rook to a3 and discovered immediately the blunder (due to Rg3+). He mind was so occupied by registering the blunder and instinctively correcting it that he did not really notice whether he had released his rook at a3 or not. Aronian immediately took exception to the corrected move and the arbiter was involved. Magnus was somewhat surprised when the arbiter said that the video footage clearly showed that Magnus had released the rook on a3 before moving it to c1. He has not seen the video but of course he accepted the ruling of the arbiter, and duly resigned. 0-1. After the game Magnus has emphasised that he did not intentionally try to cheat and he has apologised to Aronian for any disagreement he may have felt during the episode.

Sole leader before round 4, Anand, lost against Leko while Aronian, Ivanchuk and Topalov won their mini-matches 1,5-0,5 to take a shared lead with 5/8. (Ivanchuk played a brilliant queen sacrifice againt Karjakin. If you haven't seen it yet, take a look !)

At 50% Magnus is sharing 5.-7. place with Kramnik and Leko going into the first free day.

Tomorrow Magnus has white against Gelfand in the blindfold game.

Henrik Carlsen
Lommedalen, March 19th 2008.

Mar-19-08  Jason Frost: <DUS:I don't think this is true. Aronian had much more time than Carlsen.> ICC has Carlsen 9:44 Aronian 2:00, but then again ICC is often wrong. Anyway know how much time Carlsen actually had left?
Mar-19-08  DUS: Carlsen had about 9 min and Aronian had 17 min on my comp, but the connection was very poor and maybe that wasn't the real time.
Mar-20-08  ahmadov: <drmariogodrob: 43. Ra3 - Whoops. 43. ... Rg3+. Otherwise black is obviously more active and having more fun, but I wouldn't think he is "won."> 43...Rg3+ is a clearly winning move for Black, which is why Carlsen resigned...
Mar-20-08  ahmadov: Nine minutes is enough for not making a blunder like 43.Ra3, so I would not link this with time pressure...
Mar-20-08  rover: <If Carlsen apologized afterwards? I don't know, and your next sentence I don't understand.>

No, I meant Kasparov. Apparently he never said sorry to Judit Polgar. I haven't seen Kasparov talk about the issue. (except he claimed he didn't release the piece before he knew about the video)

I did hear Judit talk about it and I got the impression that she thought Kasparov knew he released the knight. Also he wouldn't talk to her for years. (sorry, no source, it was a TV interview) Maybe it was bad conscience. Maybe he was angry at the suggestion that he was deliberatly cheating. Again, hard to know without Kasparov saying one way or the other.

Maybe I'm wrong and Kasparov told his side of the story somewhere. If he did, great, I'd love to see it. But until then it's quite possible that he deliberatly cheated, got away with it, and then tried to act as if nothing happened.

Mar-20-08  jovack: people need to relax and stop making a big deal over nothing
Mar-20-08  rover: Looks like I found the transcript of the original interview on the show's website.

http://www.showder.hu/n/cikk.php?09...

Sorry about the caps, it's in the original. It was some time ago, but I don't remember them actually shouting during the interview :) My English translation follows.

<<KASZPAROVVAL AZ ELSŐ VERSENY NEM VOLT ÉPPEN FELHŐTLEN!>

EZ 94-BEN VOLT LINERESBEN, AMI OLYAN A SAKKBAN, MINT A TENISZBEN WIMBLEDON. ÉLETEMBEN ELŐSZÖR JÁTSZOTTAM, TIZENHÉT ÉS FÉL ÉVESEN. OTT ÜLT 200 EMBER, KAMERÁK, MELLETTEM A BÍRÓ, MÁSIK OLDALON A FŐSZERVEZŐ, ELÉG MEGILLETŐDÖTT VOLTAM, ÉS TUDTAM, HOGY ROSSZUL ÁLLOK. ÉS AKKOR KASZPAROV LÉPETT EGY ROSSZAT, ÉS ELENGEDTE EGY PILLANATIG A FIGURÁT. SAKKBAN AZ VAN, HA AZ EMBER MEGFOG EGY FIGURÁT, AKKOR AZZAL LÉPNI KELL, HA ELENGEDI, AKKOR AZZAL NEM LÉPHET TOVÁBB. HA MÉG FOGOM, AKKOR LEHET MÁSHOVÁ LÉPNI. EGY MÁSODPERC TÖREDÉKÉIG ENGEDTE CSAK EL, DE NEM VOLTAM SZÁZ SZÁZAKLÉKIG BIZTOS BENNE. NÉZTEM A BÍRÓRA, NÉZTEM JOBBRA, BALRA, DE NEM SZÓLTAM SEMMIT, NEM HITTEM EL, HOGY A KASZPAROV ILYET CSINÁL. HA SZÓLTAM VOLNA, RÁM FOGHATTÁK VOLNA, HOGY ÉN TALÁLTAM KI, HOGY ILYEN TRÜKKEL AKAROK KIJÖNNI A NAGYON ROSSZ ÁLLÁSBÓL. SEMMI NEM TÖRTÉNT. UTÁNA ODAJÖTT A BÍRÓ ÉS FONTOSKODOTT, HOGY VAN VALAMI PROBLÉMA? ÉS AKKOR MONDTAM NEKI, NE HARAGUDJON, ÉN ÚGY ÉREZTEM, HOGY NEM VOLT KORREKT A DOLOG. OTT VOLT EGY KAMERA, ÉS MONDTAM, HOGY SZERETNÉM MEGNÉZNI, HÁTHA FELVETTÉK. A VERSENY VÉGÉRE KIDERÜLT, AMIKOR VISSZANÉZTÉK, HOGY TÉNYLEG ELENGEDTE.

<ÉS MI TÖRTÉNT?>

LETT EGY ÓRIÁSI BOTRÁNY, ÉS ÉN HÜLYE 17 ÉVES MEGKÉRDEZTEM A KASZPAROVTÓL, HOGY TEHETTE. TELJESEN KI VOLT AKADVA, HOGY ÉN MÁSOK ELŐTT, HOGY MEREK ILYET KÉRDEZNI TŐLE, ÉS UTÁNA ÉVEKEN ÁT KERESZTÜL NÉZETT RAJTAM ÉS SEMMIBE VETT. HOGY ÉN ILYEN OLCSÓ TRÜKKÖKKEL AKAROK NÉPSZERŰSÉGET SZEREZNI.>

<<The first game against Kasparov wasn't exactly cordial, right?>

This happened in Linares which is to chess like Wimbledon to tennis. I was playing [there] for the first time, I was seventeen and a half years old. There were 200 people sitting there, cameras, the arbitrer beside me, the main organizer on the other side. I was quite apprehensive and knew I was in a worse position. And then Kasparov made a bad move and released the piece for a moment. In chess if you touch a piece you have to move with it, if you release it you can't move it anymore. As long as you're still holding it you can move it elsewhere. He only released it for a split second but I wasn't one hundred percent sure. I looked at the arbitrer, looked around, but didn't say anything - I wouldn't believe Kasparov did something like this. If I spoke out it could be have been said that I made it up, that I tried a trick like this to get out of a very bad position. So nothing happened. After that the arbitrer came to me and pretentiously asked me if there was any problem. So then I told him that no offense but this wasn't exactly right/fair. There was a camera there and I said, I'd like to see it, maybe it was recorded. By the end of the event someone looked at it and it turned out he really did release it.

<And what happened after that?>

There was a big scandal and I, as a stupid 17 year old, asked Kasparov how could he do that? He was indignant that I dare ask something like that from him in front of others. Then for years he completely ignored me. Because[?] I'd use such a cheap trick for popularity.>

Mar-20-08  Defiler: <Acirce><Too bad Polgár did not have the courage to do the same thing in Judit Polgar vs Kasparov, 1994>

I'm familar with that game and it was my feeling that Judit let it go because she has great sports(wo)manship. I think Kaspy knew exactly what he had done but part of what makes him great is his uncomprimising will to win. It's not cheating if you don't get caught kind of mindset.

Mar-20-08  waustad: Well, they'll (Kasparov & J. Polgar) both be in Austria for an event at the end of the month Maybe an intrepid reporter will ask them about it.
Mar-20-08  adair10: <I think Kaspy knew exactly what he had done but part of what makes him great is his uncomprimising will to win. It's not cheating if you don't get caught kind of mindset.>

Reminds me Maradona

Mar-21-08  SniperOnG7: Meh, imho this case is FAR different to Kasparov's. Kasparov mocked an already hurt Polgar after the game by not giving a damn about it. Whereas here Aronian got his deserved win and Carlsen apologized. Everything here got resolved immediately unlike Kasparov-Polgar.
Mar-21-08  CarlosO: 43...Rg3
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