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Magnus Carlsen vs Vassily Ivanchuk
Grand Slam Chess Final (2008), Bilbao ESP, rd 7, Sep-09
Queen's Gambit Declined: Harrwitz Attack. Main Line New Main Line (D37)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 16 OF 16 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-09-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  sergeidave: 31.Rd1, what's wrong with this move?
Sep-09-08  notyetagm: <Ulhumbrus: ... The move 13 Be2? looks like a serious mistake allowing Ivanchuk to advance the b pawn by 13...b5! after which White seems unable to avoid the opening of the c file. This seems the point at which the advantage passes to Black>

That's a very good point you made about 13 ♗f1-e2?.

http://tournaments.chessdom.com/bil...

<13.Be2 ( Nielsen won a game in the Championship of Denmark 2008 after 13.g4 but this is a reasonable alternative, if 13... b5 is not as dangerous as it seems.)>

So at the time chessdom did not think 13 ♗f1-e2? was a mistake *if* 13 ... b7-b5! "is not as dangerous as it seems". But it *was* as dangerous as it seemed, so perhaps 13 ♗f1-e2? really does deserve the ?-annotation.

And since Carlsen played well after 13 ... b6-b5! and still lost badly, is it possible that 13 ♗f1-e2? was already the losing move?

Again, from chessdom:

<23.g6 a4 24.Nd2 After he missed 13...b5, Carlsen is playing only the best moves. Nevertheless his position is difficult. >

Sep-09-08  notyetagm: It is about freakin' time that Ivanchuk won a classical game against Carlsen.

Now Chucky's classical score against Carlsen is <+1 -4 =4>, still abysmal but *much* better than the shutout it used to be.

Sep-09-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  WannaBe: <Jason Frost> In your line, 35. Kc1 can be answered with 35...Qb1#
Sep-09-08  Ulhumbrus: As 13 Nb3 instead of 13 Be2 gains an advantage, this suggests the question of which alternatives Black has before the thirteenth move. One alternative is 11...a6 instead of 11...Rd8. Then on 12 Nd2 b5 it is too late for Nb3.
Sep-09-08  Stoned Knight: i was glad to see Magnus lose. Dont get me wrong: I am his fan, but had he won he would have killed the tournament. Chuck went aggressive and won: good! he still has gas. I am disappointed by Anand, my favourite. I like the 3-1-0 scoring, I would add that players cannot resign, I want to see mates. It would have taken two or three moves at most with two queens, but how would a GM do it?
Sep-09-08  dycotiles: <<eisenherz>: No, no, no.

You are all wrong.

The Score is not 0-1 but 0-3 !!! >

I think you are confused, the score of a game, and the number of points awarded to the winner are not the same thing. e.g. in a football match the score is 3-2 in favour of team A, then in the classification table team A is awarded 3pts and team B 0. In this case, we use 1-0, 1/2 and 0-1 simply to say that white won, drew or lost respectively. We then could award the white player with 3, 1 or 0 points.

CHeers!

Sep-09-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Check It Out: <<eisenherz>: No, no, no.

You are all wrong.

The Score is not 0-1 but 0-3 !!! >

<I think you are confused, the score of a game, and the number of points awarded to the winner are not the same thing. e.g. in a football match the score is 3-2 in favour of team A, then in the classification table team A is awarded 3pts and team B 0. In this case, we use 1-0, 1/2 and 0-1 simply to say that white won, drew or lost respectively. We then could award the white player with 3, 1 or 0 points.

CHeers!>

I think <eisenherz> was kidding around here...

Sep-09-08  shintaro go: Is castling long the theory in this line?
Sep-09-08  euripides: <shintaro> 10.0-0-0 became known in the late 1980s. Speelman happened to have come across the move, I think maybe from a foreign magazine via Tisdall, when he used it to surprise Nigel Short:

Speelman vs Short, 1988

After that game it became fashionable in the 1990s and was used by Kasparov a few times.

Sep-09-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  WannaBe: <shintaro go> Yes, 94 games in DB with it.

(Shameless CG.com plug, by becoming a premium member, you can explore the openings further/deeper, plus you can get a cool looking avatar next to your name. Have your own forum, plus sacrifice explorer, and join Battle of the Brains II.

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Sep-09-08  Strongest Force: I agree with much of what you say <Ulhumbrus> however it is my belief that there indeed are two styles of play and that they do clash in contrasting ways according to the opponants skill, as you have stated. Players like Rubinstein and Petrosian are not as aggressive as a Alekhine or Kasparov. The first two will aim for solid and balanced positions whereas the latter two will pursue moves that are more difficult to figure out because these moves will often defy a true interpretation of thier value. Therefore, this large-scale style is more artistic and less scientific. Playing for the more "traditional" positional play of a Capablanca or Rubinstein do indeed mostly combine all the elements but there are a few players who are so aggressive until thier games stand apart because of a sort of addiction in seeking skirmishes and confrontations. However it is my opinion that the best players can adapt both types of play. Fischer could play both styles as could Alekhine...and most of the world-class players. That's why they are/were that good i guess. So i will stick to my points about the "positional" and "attacking" styles: they exist, players exist that prefer one over the other, and chess at its best defys all rules that we may think governs both.
Sep-09-08  ughaibu: In a note to a3 and b4 in Rubinstein vs Tarrasch, 1922 Alekhine says "Rubinstein has latterly a style much more aggresive than mine" or something similar.
Sep-10-08  YouRang: According to chessbase report, Carlsen also blames his loss on 13.Be2...

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...

Sep-10-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Mateo: <YouRang: According to chessbase report, Carlsen also blames his loss on 13.Be2... http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...; But Ivanchuk wasn't so sure. He said he didn't think this was the losing move. He said the decisive mistake was probably later, maybe 15.g4.
Sep-10-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Mateo: <sergeidave: 31.Rd1, what's wrong with this move?> Have a look to 31...Bxb3 attacking the Rook and threatening discovered check. Black wins.
Sep-10-08  shintaro go: <Carlsen also blames his loss on 13.Be2...> Such is the quality of play in the top levels of chess that one inaccurate move that loses tempo or allows an opponent to gain incremental advantages ends up getting punished. Be6 by Kramnik vs. Moro and now Carlsen's Be2 vs. Ivanchuk. Aronian and Anand have also played (?)moves that led to their losses as well. Such a delight to watch quality and instructive games.
Sep-10-08  Ulhumbrus: Strongest Force: Alekhine did not employ his aggressive style against Capablanca because he did not expect it to work. The reason for playing more solidly instead of more aggressively is not that a player chooses to play more solidly, but that the aggressive style happens to be inadequate against an opponent who plays strongly enough. Capablanca did favour aggressive play for a completely different purpose, that of helping a player to learn. Indeed a solid style may be out of place until a player has indeed learnt enough.
Sep-10-08  Ulhumbrus: <shintaro go: <Carlsen also blames his loss on 13.Be2...> Such is the quality of play in the top levels of chess that one inaccurate move that loses tempo or allows an opponent to gain incremental advantages ends up getting punished.> The consequences of one inaccurate move can be serious. 13 Be2 allows Black to advance his b pawn by 13....b5! and so to begin a pawn attack against White's King as well as forcing open the c file.
Sep-10-08  znprdx: 0-0-0 was an invitation to a crush - the only question was whether it would be a massacre or a sophisticated squeeze. But really after12..a6? as <Ulhumbrus:[points out] 13 Nb3 instead of 13 Be2 gains an advantage, ...>
Sep-10-08  Aspirador: Carlsen said on video in one of the interviews that he originally intended to respond to 13...b5 with 14.cxb5 axb5 15.Nxb5 but then realized too late that 15...e5! would give black the advantage. Strange to me because every amateur player would somehow feel that it's risky to take that pawn on b5. But that's just me.
Sep-11-08  Confuse: well <aspirador>, if you think Carlsen is an amateur you should find a less shady way of saying so that makes you seem more like a jerk so I can force my view of looking down on close minded people on you. : ) Who cares about the people. Their personality shows in their play, and it is lovely. well done chucky.
Sep-11-08  Aspirador: <Confuse> Erm, that was uncalled for because I never said Carlsen was an amateur.
Sep-11-08  Confuse: <aspirador> Curiously enough I was being sarcastic. I did not mean to offend; if you have taken any I apologize. I'll try to avoid such humour in the future.
Sep-11-08  Aspirador: Sure, no problem.
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