< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Aug-08-09|| ||David2009: Saturday's puzzle B Bernard vs T Civin, 2003 White to play 16? Very difficult
16 Nd5 immediately doesn't work: exd5 17 eXd5+ Be7 and now what? Insteead
16 Nf5 hoping for exf5 17 exf5+ Be7 18 Rxe7+ wins; meanwhile 17 Nd5 is a threat if Black does nothing (e.g. 16...e5
or 16 ...Be7). A more promising Black plan is 16.. Bc6, but 17 Nd5 is still good. Too many defensive possibilities
for me to calculate them all: 16 Nf5 is sound so I'll play it.
White played Nd5 after all and still won! Time to read the annotations and to study the other kibitzes from the uzual suspects <OBIT, dzechiel,LIFE Master AJ,TheBish,remolino, whiteshark and others>.
|Aug-08-09|| ||David2009: <dzechiel: [snip] 16 Nf5 ... met with 16...Rc8, threatening the knight on c3 AND the checkmate on c2>. Exactly. So when I play 16 Nf5 after 16...Rc8 I am busted: losing a won game. Classy analysis by <dzechiel>. Now why didn't I spot that?|
|Aug-08-09|| ||kurtrichards: Very difficult really...dumb me.|
|Aug-08-09|| ||Red October: missed this by a proverbial mile, tried to make 16.Nf5 work, but completely overlooked Nd5... sheesh|
|Aug-08-09|| ||kevin86: Amazing how fast a game CAN fall apart.|
|Aug-08-09|| ||Jimfromprovidence: I did not see 18 Rxe7+. I saw 18 Qh4 instead (with the threat of Qxf6, then Qxh8).
click for larger view
I lost the thread after 18…Rf8. Did not consider <LIFE Master AJ>’s 18…Qc3, or another defensive possibility, 18…Bc8. Too tough.
|Aug-08-09|| ||LIFE Master AJ: <JimfromProvidence> I looked at 18.Qh4 as well. (It might be good. Fritz, Junior, and Rybka considering it winning for White.)|
I haven't finished my analysis, but maybe you want to fire up yours, and see what it says.
|Aug-08-09|| ||jsheedy: 16. Nd5 has to work. If ...Qc8, 17. Nxf6+, Ke7, 18. Nd5+, winning. If 16...exd5, 17. exd5+, Be7, 18. Qe4.|
|Aug-08-09|| ||agb2002: Black has the bishop pair for B+N and can try a number of ideas: ... Rc8, ... Bh6-Bf4-Be5, ... Bg7-0-0-f5, ... a5-axb4, etc. However, his king remains in the center.|
My first idea was 16.Bxf7+ and saw lines like 16... Kxf7 17.Qh5+ Ke7 18.Nf5+ exf5 19.Nd5+ Ke6 20.exf5#, but after 16... Nxf7 17.Nxe6 Bxe6 18.Qxe6+ Qe7 or 17.Nd5 exd5 18.exd5+ Kd8, White looks worse.
Another idea is 16.Nd5 but 16... exd5 (or 16... Bh6+ 17.Kb1 exd5 18.exd5+ Kf8) 17.exd5+ Be7 18.Qe3 Bc8 19.Nc6 Nxc6 (19... Rb7 20.Nxe7 Qxe7 21.Qf3 Ne6 22.dxe6 Bxe6 23.Rxe6 Qxe6 24.Qxb7) 20.dxc6 Kd8 21.Bxf7 f5 is not clear.
I then considered 16.Nf5, threatening 17.Nd5, but didn't like 16... Rc8, so went back to 16.Nd5 exd5 (16... Qb7 17.Nxf6+ Ke7 18.Qh4 looks very bad for Black) 17.exd5+ Be7 (17... Ne6 18.dxe6 Bc8 19.exf7#; 17... Be6 18.dxe6 Bh6+ 19.Kb1 0-0 20.e7 + -) 18.Rxe7+ Kxe7 (18... Kf8 19.Rxd7 + -) 19.Qe3+:
A) 19... Kf8 20.Qh6+ Ke7 (20... Kg8 21.Rd3 + -; 20... Ke8 21.Qxf6 Rf8 22.Re1+ Be6 (or 22... Ne6) 23.dxe6 + -) 21.Re1+ Ne6 22.dxe6 Bxe6 (22... fxe6 23.Qg7+ and 24.Qxh8+) 23.Nxe6 (23... fxe6 24.Qg7+).
B) 19... Ne6 20.dxe6
B.1) 20... Bc6 21.exf7+ Kf8 (21... Kd8 22.Ne6+; 21... Kd7 22.Bg4+ Kd8 23.Ne6+) 22.Qh6+ Ke7 23.Re1+ Kd7 24.Bg4+ Kd8 25.f8=Q+ Rxf8 26.Qxf8+ Be8 27.Qxe8#.
B.2) 20... Bxe6 21.Bxf7 Kxf7 (otherwise 22.Bxe6) 22.Qxe6+ Kf8 (22... Kd8 23.Qxf6+ Kd7 24.Qg7+ and 25.Qxh8+) 23.Qxf6+ Kg8 (23... Ke8 24.Re1+ Kd7 25.Re7+) 24.Rd3 + -.
B.3) 20... fxe6 21.Nf5+ Kd8 (21... Kf8 22.Qh6+ Kg8 23.Qg7#) 22.Nxd6 Rg8 (22... Rf8 23.Qh6 + -) 23.Qh6 Rg6 24.Qf8+ Be8 25.Qxe8#.
C) 19... Be6 20.dxe6 looks similar to B.
|Aug-08-09|| ||gofer: I really liked this one. I saw Nf5 with the discovered check if taken and also Nd5 with the same idea. Both look good and in fact the more I looked at this the more I realised just how completely lost black's position is! |
In the end I went for...
First, the refusal...
16 ... Qc8/Qb7/Qa7 17 Nxf6 Ke7 18 Nxd7 Qxe7 (not Kxe7 losing another pawn (probably two) to Bxf7) 19 Nf5!
double jeopardy! both refusing and accepting are fatal for black...
19 ... Ke8 20 Nxd6+ Bxd6 21 e5 winning
19 ... exf5 20 exf5+ Ne6 21 Qh4+ Ke8 22 fxe6 winning
Now for the acceptance
16 ... exd5 17 exd5+ ...
17 ... Be7 18 Rxe7 Kxe7 19 Qe3+ winning
17 ... Ne6 18 dxe6 Kd8 (Bc6 19 exf7+ Kd8 20 Ne6 winning or Bc8 19 Bxf7 Kd8 20 Qf3 winning) 19 exd7 Qxd7 20 Bg4 Qc7 21 Qf3 winning (i.e. Qf6+ or Nc6+)
17 ... Be6 18 dxe6 ...
18 ... Ke7 19 Nf5+ Ke8 20 exf7+ Kd7 21 Ne7+! Ne6 22 Qxe6+ Kd8 23 Nd5 winning
18 ... Be7 19 exf7+ Nxf7 20 Bxf7+ Kxf7 21 Kh5+ Kg8 (or lose the queen) 22 Nf5 Bf8 23 Re3 winning (both Rg3 and Rxe6 are crushing)
I have probably missed some lines, knowing my poor analysis, but it looks good...
Time to check...
|Aug-08-09|| ||gofer: I wish I had put more effort into
"17 ... Be7 18 Rxe7 Kxe7 19 Qe3+ winning"
which turned out to be the main line played, but I was 90% there...
|Aug-08-09|| ||johnlspouge: Saturday (Very Difficult)
B Bernard vs T Civin, 2003 (16.?)
White to play and win.
Material: N for B+P. The Black Ke8 has 1 legal move. The White Bh5 pins Pf7 to Ke8, so Pe6 is really protected 2x and attacked 2x, by Nd4 and Qh3. With the White Re1 facing Ke8, Nc3 is ready for the usual Sicilian sacrifice at d5, opening e-file after the White Pe4 and Black Pe6 capture toward the d-file. The White Kc1 is secured from check.
Candidates (16.): Nd5
16. Nd5 (threatening Qc7 and the loose Pf6)
(1) Black can refuse the sacrifice, further degrading his position and losing compensating material:
16…Q moves 17.Nxf6+ Ke7
(2) Black can accept the sacrifice:
16…exd5 17.exd5+ Be7 [Ne6 or Be6 18.dxe6 wins material]
Candidates (18.) Qe3, Rxe7+
[18.Qe3 Bc8 and progress is unclear]
18.Rxe7+ Kxe7 [Kf8 19.Rxf7+]
Candidates (19.) Qe3+, Re1+
(2.1) 19…Kf8 20.Qh6+
(2.1.1) 20…Ke8 [Kg8 21.Rd3 (threatening 22.Rg3+) wins] 21.Qxf6
21…Rf8 [Rg8 is worse] 22.Re1+ Be6 [Ne6 23.dxe6 Bc8 24.Bxf7+]
23.dxe6 (threatening 24.exf7+ 25.Qe7+ 26.Qxf8 o r24.Bxf7+)
(2.1.2) 20…Ke7 21.Qg7 Rf1 22.Re1+ Be6 [Ne6 23.dxe6 Bc8 24.exf7+]
23.dxe6 (threatening 24.exf7+ or 24.Qxf8)
The Black position has collapsed.
(2.2) 19… Be6 [Ne6 20.dxe6 Bc8 21.exf7++ Kd7 22.Qe8+ Rxe8 23.fxe8=Q#]
20.dxe6 (threatening 21.exf7++ 22.Qe8+ Rxe8 23.fxe8=Q+)
Black must surrender material.
<[Although the game variation 20.Bxf7 is best, Toga rates 20.dxe6 at better than +2.5 Ps, more than enough to justify the sacrifice 16.Nd5.]>
|Aug-08-09|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <LIFE Master AJ><I looked at 18.Qh4 as well. (It might be good. Fritz, Junior, and Rybka considering it winning for White.)> |
Rybka freeware likes it. Its strategy is to pressure the pinned bishop on e7 and take advantage of the pinned pawn on f7.
click for larger view
It sees a rook lift as the tactic to get the win. Its line after 18 Qh4 is 18…Rf8 19 Rd3 Bc8 (to prevent Nf5 and give the queen access to e7) 20 Rde3 Rb7 (to support e7).
click for larger view
Now the payoff. 21 Rxe7+ Qxe7 22 Rxe7+ Rxe7 23 Qxf6 wins.
click for larger view
|Aug-08-09|| ||LIFE Master AJ: <Jimfromprovidence> I came up with something similar, nothing to add your excellent analysis at this time.
|Aug-08-09|| ||wals: The following may be of help to those wanting help.
[Event "TCh-CZE 2002-3"]
[Site "Czech Rep CZE"]
[White "Borek Bernard"]
[Black "Tomas Civin"]
[Annotator "Rybka 3 1-cpu (30m)"]
♗95: Sicilian ♘ajdorf: 6 ♗g5 e6, unusual White 7th moves
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6
3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qf3 Nbd7 8. O-O-O Qc7 9. Qh3 Nc5
10. Bxf6 gxf6 11. Be2 b5 12. a3 Rb8 ♗lack has a cramped position 13. b4
White threatens to win material: b4xc5 (13. Kb1 ) 13... Nb7 (13... Na4 14.
Rd3 ) 14. Bh5 (14. f4 Nd8 ) 14... Nd8 (14... Qc4 15. Kb1 ) 15. Rhe1
♗lack has a cramped position Bd7 ♗lack should quickly conclude
development. (15... Rg8 is just about the only chance) 16. Nd5
Decoy: e6 exd5 (16... exd5 17. exd5+ Decoy) (16... -- 17. Nxc7+ Mate
threat) 17. exd5+ Be7 18. Rxe7+ Deflection: e6 Kxe7 19. Qe3+ Ne6 (19...
Kf8 doesn't get the cat off the tree 20. Qh6+ Ke7 21. Re1+ Ne6 22. Nf5+ Kd8
23. Qxf6+ (23. dxe6 is clearly weaker Qc3 24. e7+ Kc7 ) 23... Kc8 24.
dxe6 fxe6 25. Qxh8+ Kb7 26. Bf3+ d5 27. Qg7 ) 20. Bxf7 (Worse is 20. dxe6
fxe6 21. Nf5+ Kd8 22. Nxd6 Rg8 ) 20... Kxf7 21. dxe6+ Kg7 (21... Kg8 the
only chance to get some counterplay 22. Qg3+ Kf8 ) 22. Nf5+ (22. exd7
succumbs to Qxd7 23. Qg3+ Kf7 ) 22... Kg6 23. Rd5 (23. Rd5 Bxe6 24. Q
Kf7 25. Qg7+ Ke8 26. Qxc7 Bxf5 27. Qxb8+ Kf7 28. Qxh8 Ke6 29. Qg8+ Ke7 30. Rxf5
a5 31. Rxb5 d5 32. Qxh7+ Kd6 33. Rb6+ Ke5 34. Qe7+ Kf4 35. Qxf6+ Kg4 36. h3+
Kh5 37. Qh6#) (23. Qh6+ Kxf5 24. Qh5+ Ke4 25. Qd5+ Kf4 26. Rd4#) 1-0
|Aug-08-09|| ||SamAtoms1980: Nope.
I played 16 e5 and 17 Ne4.
|Aug-08-09|| ||TheChessGuy: Thought this would be my Waterloo... Then I realized that Black's king was likely in danger (just background knowledge; king safety can be a huge problem in the Bg5 Najdorf). Then, White has the luxury of conducting a brilliant attack. It's just plain, simple fun.|
|Aug-08-09|| ||jheiner: 16. White to play. Very Difficult.
Material even. Black has the B pair for Whites two N's and light-squared B. White has two pawn islands to Blacks' three. White is castled Queenside and the Queenside P are fairly secure. The White N on c3 is loose, protected and attacked by the Q's. Black has Bh6+ for a tempo. Black can play Rc8 and setup an xray mate threat on c2, although White can adequately defend. The Black K is is the center, and White has R's on d1 and e1 with a half-open d-file, and the potential to clear the e-file with captures on either d5 or f5. The Pf7 is pinned. Black's Pf6 and Pe6 are loose.
Candidates: Nd5, Bxf7+, also considered a pawn push on the K-side aga
inst f6, but Bg7 develops nicely for Black.
16.Nd5 (attacking the Qc7)
A.) 16...Q moves (e.g.Qc8) 17.Nxf6+ (snapping off the P) Ke7 18.Qh4 (looks very bad for Black.)
B.) 16...exd6 (White's Q is now hanging) 17.exd5+
A1.) 17...Ne6/Be6 18.dxe6 (White is up a pawn with good position and
At this point my counting and visualization skills are starting to fa
il. White is down a N for a P and the Q is hanging Bxh3. I tried to c
alculate sac's of Bxf7+ or Rxe7+ but I suspect that Black can just gi
ve up material now and the compilications make my head hurt. How to c
ontinue the attack?
Main line: 16.Nd5 exd5 17.exd5+ Be7...
(Bxf7+ and Rxf7+ throw away material...so try changing the order of a
18.Ne6 (traps the K and threatens Nxc7+ winning the Q with tempo.) Nx
e6 (18...Bxe6 19.dxe6 ) 19.dxe6 and the threat of exf7++ looks bad fo
Ok, this is as far as I can take it. Time to check...
Oh wow! Bernard did play the R sac sequence. I sent fairly far with that one, but played 18.Rxe7+ Kxe7 19.Re1+ instead of Qe3+ but still.
Gonna have to read the kibitzing, as this one was just past my abilities. Great game.
|Aug-08-09|| ||jheiner: <johnlspouge: ... Material: N for B+P>|
I think you mean 2N+B for Bpair+N seeing as both sides have equal material. :P
I only noticed that because I read your analysis very carefully as it is excellent. Thank you for the post.
I particularly like the order in which you did the analysis. When I read yours, it was breadth first search, and very clear pruning. I could keep it in my head somehow better than my own analysis which was failing. FYI.
|Aug-08-09|| ||vulcan20: Doesn't Black's king slip away after 20...Kd8, thereby leaving Black with an extra Exchange?|
|Aug-08-09|| ||OBIT: <jheiner>On Qe3+ vs Re1+, there seems to be some herd mentality going on. The game continuation 19. Qe3+ is getting all the attention when 19. Re1+ seems about as effective. |
On page 1, <TheBish> analyzes 19. Re1+ Kf8 (the only try, as 19...Ne6 20. Bxf7 wins quickly) 20. Bg4 h5! (this looks like the only good defensive try, stopping Qh6+) 21. Bxd7 Nb7 (again forced, as Re8+ is too strong a threat).
Now <TheBish> suggests 22. Ne6+. The idea looks good at first glance, but after 22...fxe6 23. Qxe6 Qd8 I don't see the clear continuation. Black's position is terribly passive, but the question for White is how to break through, and let's not forget he is a rook down.
Instead of 22. Ne6+, I suggest 22. Nc6 Ra8 23. Re7 Qb6 24. Qf5, following the general principle that it is better to maintain the initiative without sacrificing. (That way, if you miscalculate, you haven't already lost, heh heh...) And, White certainly appears to have a strong initiative here. One continuation is 24...Rh6 25. Qf4 Rg6 26. Bf5 Rxg2 27. Qh6+ Rg7 28. Rxf7+! Kxf7 28. Be6+ Kf8 29. Qh8+ and mates. There are other ways for Black to play this, of course, but it seems doubtful he can escape from this predicament.
|Aug-08-09|| ||johnlspouge: < <jheiner> wrote: <johnlspouge: ... Material: N for B+P> >|
Hi, <jheiner>. I keep post-peek corrections of my analyses, so given that I have other interests and do not wish to spend forever getting every detail right, I am very appreciative of your corrections.
It's nice to see you back in the neighborhood, even without your gnome.
|Aug-08-09|| ||jheiner: <johnlspouge: It's nice to see you back in the neighborhood, even without your gnome.>|
Thanks. Good to be back. Brought back the gnome too. :P
|Aug-09-09|| ||LIFE Master AJ: I am (trying to) analyze/analyzing this game on the computer. |
Has anyone else been struck by the similarity of the end results of the lines, 18.Qe3 and 18.Qh4?
Further, I let the computer run for many hours last night. 18.Qh4 is the FIRST choice of Fritz 11, NOT what was played in the game!!!
|Aug-09-09|| ||LIFE Master AJ: As kap54 pointed out, White also missed a quick mate at the end of the game. |
[An improvement (over the actual course of the game) would have been the sharp line of:
>/= 23.Qh6+!! Kxf5; 24.Qh5+ Ke4T;
This is forced. ('' or "Box" in "Informant style" annotations.)
(Or 24...Kxe6; 25.Re1#.)
25.Qd5+ Kf4; 26.Rd4#.]
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·