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Jon Viktor Gunnarsson vs Jon Ludvig Hammer
European Team Championship (2009), Novi Sad SRB, rd 2, Oct-23
Sicilian Defense: Scheveningen. Modern Variation (B83)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jun-23-19  Whitehat1963: <Now what>

Here’s what Stockfish’s quick analysis says: 1) -0.83 (25 ply) 32...Rxe5 33.Bf4 Rd5 34.g4 g5 35.Bg3 f5 36.gxf5 Kf6 37.h4 h6 38.Kh3 Bxb4 39.Kg4 Ba5 40.hxg5+ hxg5 41.Bf2 Rxf5 42.Bb6 Rf4+ 43.Kh3 g4+ 44.Kg2 Ra4 45.Bc5 b4 46.Rb5 b3 47.Rxb3 Bc7 48.Rb7 Ra2+ 49.Kf1 Be5 50.Be7+ Kf5 51.Rb4 Bg3

Jun-23-19  Whitehat1963: But analyzing each move yields a perpetual check:

32. fxe5 Rxe5 33. Bf4 Rd5 34. g4 Ke6 35. Rb6+ Kf7 36. Rb7

Jun-23-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: I don't see Black converting that position:


click for larger view

Stockfish's eval gives a little bit for the extra Pawn, but at worst White can give up his Bishop, and hang for 50 moves with R+B vs R.

Jun-23-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <whiteshark: But analyzing each move yields a perpetual check: 32. fxe5 Rxe5 33. Bf4 Rd5 34. g4 Ke6 35. Rb6+ Kf7 36. Rb7>

Trying something different in that line to avoid the perpetual. This looks drawish too, especially considering White can always give up Biship for Pawn and draw R+B vs. R.

35...Kd7 36. Rb7+ Ke8 37. Rb8+ Rd8 38. Rxb5


click for larger view

Jun-23-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: <OhioChessFan> In fact, you are referring to a posting of the esteemed <Whitehat1963>.
Jun-23-19  hcgflynn: I think 31. - e5 is a very dubious move, 32. fxe5 or even 32. Kg3 gives white very good drawing chances. 32. Rxb5 is a blunder, and obviously there are some mistakes after that, because white should have sacrificed his pawn (maybe 33. f5) in order to free the bishop.
Jun-23-19  goodevans: It would appear that the key to today's puzzle is to realise that black has nothing better than to give up his Q for R + B. He has three ways to do that:

- Take the R

- Take the B

- Use a mate threat as in the game

It turns out that the last of these is the best though to me it's not obvious why.

Needless to say, I didn't get this one.

Jun-23-19  mel gibson: Very tricky puzzle.

Stockfish 10 says:

24... Rfc8

(24. .. Rfc8
(♖f8-c8 ♖e1xe2 ♖c2xe2 ♖d4-d1 ♔g8xg7 ♕g3-f3 ♖c8-c2 ♕f3-b7 ♖e2-d2 ♕b7-f3 ♗e7xb4 ♖d1xd2 ♗b4xd2 g2-g3 ♗d2-c3 ♕f3-d3 ♖c2-c1+ ♔h1-g2 b5-b4 ♕d3-b5 ♖c1-c2+ ♔g2-g1 ♗c3-d4+ ♔g1-h1 ♖c2-b2 ♕b5-c4 ♗d4-c3 ♔h1-g1 h7-h5 h2-h3 ♖b2-c2 ♔g1-f1 ♖c2-d2 ♕c4-b5 ♖d2-b2 ♕b5-c4 ♗c3-f6 g3-g4 h5-h4 ♕c4-d3 ♗f6-c3 f4-f5 e6xf5 g4xf5 g6-g5) +1.81/39 111)

score for Black +1.81 depth 39.

Jun-23-19  Hodor: Jon Viktor got hammered.
Jun-23-19  saturn2: <goodevans black has nothing better than to give up his Q for R + B>

Black is a pawn up. He could also opt for losing an exchange after 24...Qf2 or 24...Qh5

Jun-23-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Gunnar, Hammer...pun potential.
Jun-23-19  erichbf: I am with everyone that thinks 26. Rd1 is much better than h3, but after Kxg7 seems slight edge for black, but hardly the decisive edge usual for most problems.
Jun-23-19  patzer2: Unless someone can prove <OCF>'s improvement 32. fxe4 Rxe4 33. Bf4 Rd5 34. Bf5 ⩱ to = doesn't force a draw, then I'd think my simple attempt 24...Qxe1+ 25. Qxe1 26. Kxg7 = probably yields the same result.

Of course 24...Rfc8! ±, solving today's Sunday puzzle, is best because it's risk free and gives White the opportunity to go wrong.

P.S.: White's decisive mistake was 32. Rxb5? allowing 32...e4! -+. Necessary instead was of course 32. fxe4 ⩱.

Jun-23-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: Black is one pawn up.

White threatens Rxe2 and Bxf8.

The weakness of White's back rank suggests 24... Rfc8 (24... Ra8 25.Rxe2 Ra(c)1+ 26.Re1 Rc(a1) 27.Rdd1 Rxd1 28.Bxa1 + - ):

A) 25.Rxe2 Rxe2

A.1) 26.h3 Rc1+ 27.Kh2 Kxg7 is not completely clear. However, Black has winning chances, for example, 28.Qd3 Rcc2 29.Qxb5 Rxg2+ 30.Kh1 Rh2+ 31.Kg1 Rcg2+ 32.Kf1 Rb2 33.Kg1 Rxh3 34.Qb7 Rc3 35.Rd1 Bxb4 - + [r+b+3p vs Q].

A.2) 26.h4 Rc1+ as above.

A.3) 26.Rd1 Kxg7 with the same conclusion (27.Qd3 Rcc2 28.Rg1 Red2 29.Qxb5 Bd4).

B) 25.Be5 Rc1 wins decisive material (26.Rg1 Rxg1+ and mate in two).

C) 25.Rdd1 Kxg7 wins a piece.

Jun-23-19  scholes: Insane is finding defence for white after 26 Rd1 Kxg7. White b pawn falls. How queen defends b pawn from running is difficult. Stockfish makes it look easy.
Jun-23-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: I forgot 28... Bf6 in my line A.3. Obviously 29... Bd4 is illegal.
Jun-23-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: I affectionately refer to GM Hammer as

Jon Lutfisk Hammer

Jun-23-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Count Wedgemore: <tga> Lutefisk is one of our national traditions that I'd be happy to do without. It's horrible, really.

Generations of Norwegians have childhood traumas of having to eat Lutefisk. Those bad memories will never go away.

Jun-23-19  Patriot:


click for larger view

24...Bh4
25. Rxe2
Rc1+
26. Re1
Rxe1+
27. Qxe1
Bxe1
28. Bxf8
Kxf8
29. Rd8+
Ke7
30. Rb8
Bxb4
31. Rxb5

Somehow the computer is saying this evaluates to +0.95. Black is up a pawn for the exchange which seems more like -0.25.

Jun-23-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: After 24.Re1 it's not clear what Black's best continuation is, at least not to Stockfish 10.


click for larger view

The two main candidates are 24...Rfc8 as played in the game and 24...Kxb7 as probably most non-GMs would play. Up to search depth d=45 the two moves alternate between being considered the best reply to 24.Re1 by Stockfish or (mostly) being considered as giving exactly equal chances. And when one of the two moves is given a better evaluation by Stockfish, most of the time the evaluation difference is so small as to consider the resulting positions effectively equal. But, if Stockfish just <had> to make a move, then it would make the move enclosed in angle brackets and, if the evaluation was exactly the same, it would make the move that first appeared in its search tree.

depth ...Rfe8 ...Kxg7

25 -0.90 <-1.18>

26 <-1.37> <-1.37>

27 -1.20 <-1.21>

28 <-1.11> -1.09

29 -1.10 <-1.11>

30 <-1.61> -1.09

31 -1.56 <-1.52>

32 -1.56 <-1.59>

33 <-1.76> <-1.76>

34 <-1.76> <-1.76>

35 <-1.76> <-1.76>

36 <-1.76> <-1.76>

37 <-1.76> <-1.76>

38 <-1.76> <-1.76>

39 <-1.66> <-1.66>

40 <-1.76> <-1.76>

41 <-1.76> <-1.22>

42 -1.52 <-1.53>

43 -1.42 <-1.43>

44 <-1.50> -1.46

45 -1.20 <-1.32>

This shows that for some positions it is simply not possible for a chess engine to determine which is the best move. Only at d=30 was 24...Rce8 determined to be definitely superior to 24...Kxg7 if you use an evaluation threshold of +0.50 to determine when a move is considered to be better by an engine. So those of us who are below the GM level can take comfort that the move that we probably would have made in this position, 24...Kxg7, was likely equal to the GM move, 24...Rce8.

Jun-23-19  NBZ: My idea was Qxe1+ Rxe1 Kxg7, with the same idea as in the game of giving up a queen for a rook and a bishop. Rfc8 is however superior because it does not allow White to easily consolidate (and allows for White to make mistakes such as h3 instead of Rd1).
Jun-23-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <NBZ>, as the saying is:

<if you want a man to hang himself, leave some slack in the rope>

Jun-23-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <<mel gibson> cites Stockfish:

(24. .. Rfc8
(♖f8-c8 ♖e1xe2 ♖c2xe2 ♖d4-d1 ♔g8xg7 ♕g3-f3 ♖c8-c2 ♕f3-b7 ♖e2-d2 ♕b7-f3 ♗e7xb4 ♖d1xd2 ♗b4xd2 g2-g3 ♗d2-c3 ♕f3-d3 ♖c2-c1+ ♔h1-g2 b5-b4 ♕d3-b5 ♖c1-c2+ ♔g2-g1 ♗c3-d4+ ♔g1-h1 ♖c2-b2 ♕b5-c4 ♗d4-c3 ♔h1-g1 h7-h5 h2-h3 ♖b2-c2 ♔g1-f1 ♖c2-d2 ♕c4-b5 ♖d2-b2 ♕b5-c4 ♗c3-f6 g3-g4 h5-h4 ♕c4-d3 ♗f6-c3 f4-f5 e6xf5 g4xf5 g6-g5) +1.81/39 111) >

White to play his 31st:


click for larger view

Surely 34. g4, not g3 as SF calls for? Even for that, the perpetual issues all over the board in this line leave me a bit skeptical of a -1.81 eval. I'm beginning to think this puzzle is cooked.

Apologies to the esteemed <Whitehat> and <whiteshark> btw.

Jun-25-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: < Count Wedgemore: <tga> Lutefisk is one of our national traditions that I'd be happy to do without. It's horrible, really.

Generations of Norwegians have childhood traumas of having to eat Lutefisk. Those bad memories will never go away.>

Dear <Count>,

Let me express how sorry I am for your trauma.

My condolences.

Of course, I assumed that all Scandinavians drink heavily in order to forget the horrors of eating Lutfisk in their early years.

Jun-26-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Count Wedgemore: <thegoodanarchist: Of course, I assumed that all Scandinavians drink heavily in order to forget the horrors of eating Lutfisk in their early years.>

<tga>, my good man. It is an interesting theory. Bad food can certainly lead many a poor soul to hit the bottle, just to forget.

This would explain why in Finland they drink so heavily. Their food is terrible.

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