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Vassily Ivanchuk vs Vladimir Kramnik
Tal Memorial (2009), Moscow RUS, rd 9, Nov-14
Queen's Gambit Declined: Vienna Variation (D39)  ·  1/2-1/2

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 10 OF 11 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-29-09  Hesam7: <Ulhumbrus: <Hesam7: <Ulhumbrus> what would you play after 23. Ndxe6 Qxe5 24. Rfe1 (24. b4 gives a White a sizable advantage but I don't think there is a win) 24. ... Qxb2: > Following 24...Qxb2 how about this: 25 Nxg6 fxg6 26 Nf4 Qf6 27 Rxe7 Qxe7 28 Nxg6>

This does not work out.

23. Ndxe6 Qxe5 24. Rfe1 Qxb2 25. Nxg6 (Rybka's recommendation, 25. h4, seems better but again White has the advantage but there is no forced win) 25. ... fxg6 26. Nf4 Qf6 27. Rxe7? (after this White is lost, 27. Nxg6, 27. Re6 and 27. Bb1 are my machine's suggestions) 27. ... Qxe7 28. Nxg6 Qg5:


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29. Ne7+ Kg7 30. Nf5+ Kh8 31. Qd4+ Rg7 and White has nothing better than 32. Qxg7+ Qxg7 33. Nxg7 Kxg7

Nov-30-09  Ulhumbrus: <Hesam7> I missed the move 28...Qg5. In that case 27 Re6 or 27 Nxg6 seems better, and worth a look at. On 27 Nxg6 Rxg6 28 Rxe7+ Qxe7 29 Qxg6 wins. On 27 Re6 Qg5 28 Rxg6 Qxg4 29 Rxg4+ Kh8 30 Ng6+ Rxg6 31 Rxg6 Bf8 White may have not as much.
Nov-30-09  notyetagm: http://www.chessbase.com/shop/produ...

Rogozenco's analysis of the game Ivanchuk - Kramnik, which comes at the end of this second video, makes clear just how open the result of the Tal Memorial was until the very last minute. The Ukrainian had built up a brilliant attacking position and with the correct continuation could have wrested the tournament victory away from Kramnik.

Dec-01-09  Hesam7: <Ulhumbrus: <Hesam7> I missed the move 28...Qg5. In that case 27 Re6 or 27 Nxg6 seems better, and worth a look at. On 27 Nxg6 Rxg6 28 Rxe7+ Qxe7 29 Qxg6 wins>

Please check your analysis with an engine before posting. A

fter 23. Ndxe6 Qxe5 24. Rfe1 Qxb2 25. Nxg6 fxg6 26. Nf4 Qf6 27. Nxg6 Bc5 (only move; 27. ... Rxg6?? 28. Bxg6 Kg8 29. Qxc8 is even more clear cut than your line):


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And things are very unclear here, f2 (and g2 but that one is still a couple of moves away) is under assault.

Dec-01-09  Everett: <Hesam> Some individuals prefer not to use a computer at all, so please refrain from asking others to check their analysis with an engine.
Dec-01-09  Ulhumbrus: <Hesam7 Please check your analysis with an engine before posting. A fter 23. Ndxe6 Qxe5 24. Rfe1 Qxb2 25. Nxg6 fxg6 26. Nf4 Qf6 27. Nxg6 Bc5 (only move; 27. ... Rxg6?? 28. Bxg6 Kg8 29. Qxc8 is even more clear cut than your line): > I don't use an engine. I found the move Qc8 in one variation later,after having posted the preceding analysis. In the variation above after 27..Bc5 28 Re6! ( I found this move in another variation for another purpose, to displace Black's Queen) 28...Qxf2+ 29 Kh1 two potential threats are Ne5+ followed by Rxh6 mate and Ne5+ followed by Nf7 mate.
Dec-01-09  Hesam7: <Ulhumbrus: I don't use an engine.>

Well you should because this going back and forth is very inefficient and time consuming and here is yet another example where an engine would instantly point out the flaw in your calculation after: 23. Ndxe6 Qxe5 24. Rfe1 Qxb2 25. Nxg6 fxg6 26. Nf4 Qf6 27. Nxg6 Bc5 28. Re6? Qxf2+ 29. Kh1 Black is winning and here is how: 29. ... Qxg2+ 30. Qxg2 Bxg2 31. Kxg2 Rcd8


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with ... Rxd3 to come. For example 32. a4 Rxd3 33. Rxd3 Rxg6+ 34. Rxg6 Kxg6


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this ending should be won for Black at least he can torture White for a very long time without any danger of losing.

Dec-02-09  Hesam7: Kramnik comments on this game, he misses some things but still it should be here for reference: http://translate.google.com/transla...
Dec-02-09  Ulhumbrus: <Hesam7> After 24...Qxb2 an alternative is 25 Re3 as after 24..Qf6 eg 24...Qxb2 25 Re3 Qf6 26 Rde1
Dec-02-09  Everett: <hesam> why don't you tell Kramnik he should use an engine before commenting. I find his imperfect analysis to be inefficient and a waste of time as well. ;-)
Dec-02-09  Hesam7: <Everett: <hesam> why don't you tell Kramnik he should use an engine before commenting. I find his imperfect analysis to be inefficient and a waste of time as well. ;-)>

:-) The analysis in the link are his comments right after the game is finished, I am sure if he annotates this game later he will use engines and his conclusions will be different. Still the link is a good reference because he talks about what he saw during the game and why he played a certain move and so on.

Dec-02-09  Atking: Engine or not, a great analysis <Hesam7>! But I agree <24. b4 gives a White a sizable advantage> Do you have again a deep line on this move?
Dec-02-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: <Atking> I've actually analyzed this a bit with <Hesam7> in my forum - what we reached as a "main line" was 23.Ndxe6 Qxe5 24.b4 Qf6 25.bxa5 fxe6 26.Rfe1 Qg5 27.Qxg5 Bxg5 28.Nxg6 Kg7 29.a6 which looks quite unpleasant for Black, e.g. 29...b6/bxa6 30.h4 Bf6 31.Rxe6 (or Nf4).
Dec-03-09  Atking: Thanks <Eyal> for the link. Need an half day of free time to have a proper look on. Quite deep indeed even for great champions especially when they have only few minutes left on the clock. Thanks again.
Dec-03-09  Hesam7: <Eyal: <Atking> I've actually analyzed this a bit with <Hesam7> in my forum - what we reached as a "main line" was 23.Ndxe6 Qxe5 24.b4 Qf6 25.bxa5 fxe6 26.Rfe1 Qg5 27.Qxg5 Bxg5 28.Nxg6 Kg7 29.a6 which looks quite unpleasant for Black, e.g. 29...b6/bxa6 30.h4 Bf6 31.Rxe6 (or Nf4).>

Couple of points:

(1) That is our current main line for 23. Ndxe6 however I would argue strongly against 29. ... b6. I think that would just add to Black's worries and turns the a7-pawn into yet another weakness he has to deal with (think of all the combinations that end with a piece taking on b6 for example).

(2) <Ulhumbrus>'s suggestion, 23. Ndxe6 Qxe5 24. Rfe1, could prove very promising for White (to me at least 24. Rfe1 is more aesthetically pleasing than 24. b4) if followed up correctly: 24. ... Qxb2 (this is forced) and now 25. h4. I have looked at this with Rybka and the more time I give it the more it likes White.

Dec-03-09  Hesam7: After 23. Ndxe6 Qxe5 24. Rfe1 Qxb2 25. h4:


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This is what I got on my old laptop after 90 minutes (Rybka 2.2n2 @ depth 17; if you have the time, a fast machine and a better engine please post the result of your analysis):

25. ... Rce8 26.Nc7 Bc5 27.Nxe8 Bxf2+ 28.Kh2 Bxe1 29.Rxe1 Bxe8 30.Nxg6 fxg6 31.Rxe8 Qg7 32.Re6 (-0.60)

25. ... Kh8 26.Ng5 Bxg5 27.hxg5 Rce8 28.Qh4 Qg7 29.Kh2 Rxe1 30.Rxe1 Qf8 31.Re5 Nb3 32.gxh6 (-0.86)

25. ... Qf6 26.h5 Kh8 27.hxg6 fxe6 28.Rxe6 Qh4 29.g7+ Rxg7 30.Ng6+ Kg8 31.Qf5 Rf8 32.Nxe7+ (-1.31)

25. ... b5 26.Ng5+ Bxg5 27.hxg5 Rge8 28.Qh4 Qh8 29.gxh6 Re5 30.Nh3 Rxe1+ 31.Rxe1 Kg8 32.Re7 (-1.61)

25. ... b6 26.Ng5+ Bxg5 27.hxg5 Rge8 28.Qh4 Qh8 29.gxh6 Re5 30.Nh5 Rxh5 31.Qxh5 Qf6 32.Bb1 (-1.75)

Dec-03-09  Hesam7: I think the <Ulhumbrus> line is winning! Here is more evidence for it after <23. Ndxe6 Qxe5 24. Rfe1 Qxb2 25. h4 Rce8> Rybka's top line @ depth 17; see below <26. h5> the point of the previous move! <26. ... Kh8> the king has to move other moves end in disaster so this is practically forced <27. Nc7>:


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Rybka 2.2n2 @ depth 17:

27. ... Bc5 28.Rxe8 Bxe8 29.hxg6 Ba4 30.Qh4 Bxf2+ 31.Qxf2 Qxf2+ (-1.31)

27. ... g5 28.Qf5 Qg7 29.Nfe6 fxe6 30.Nxe6 Ref8 31.Nxg7 Rxf5 32.Nxf5 Bxa3 33.Nxh6 Rf8 34.Re5 (-1.86)

27. ... gxh5 28.Qf5 Rxg2+ 29.Nxg2 Qg7 30.Nd5 Rg8 31.Qh7+ Qxh7 32.Bxh7 Rg5 33.Rxe7 Bxd5 34.Be4 (-2.10)

27. ... Bh4 28.Rxe8 Qxf2+ 29.Kh1 Bxe8 30.hxg6 Bg5 31.Rf1 Qh4+ 32.Qxh4 Bxh4 33.Nxe8 Rxe8 34.gxf7 (-2.16)

27. ... Rd8 28.Rxe7 Qf6 29.Rde1 Rd4 30.g3 g5 31.Ne8 Bxe8 32.Rxe8 Rd8 33.Rxg8+ Kxg8 34.Be4 (-2.17)

The top line is very interesting and the forced sequence continues even after the end of the Rybka line. White wins a piece at the end.

Dec-03-09  KamikazeAttack: After all this while with machine analysis, if a definitive win is still elusive then Ivanchuck shouldn't feel bad about not being able to win the game OTB.
Dec-03-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: <Hesam7: I think the <Ulhumbrus> line is winning! Here is more evidence for it after <23. Ndxe6 Qxe5 24. Rfe1 Qxb2 25. h4 Rce8>>

The h4-h5 advance seems genuinely dangerous for Black in this formation, so 24...Qf6 (preventing h4) might make more sense in this line. Have you checked it? Looking at previous posts, the "Ulhumbrus line" that actually started your discussion included this move and continued 25 Re3 Qh4 26 Qe2 Nb3 27 Rh3 Qf6 28 Qh5 - but 25...Qh4?? is a very bad move; instead, Black can play 25...fxe6, and after 26.Rxe6 Qg5 27.Rxg6 Qxg4 28.Rxg4+ Kh8 29.Ng6+ Rxg6 30.Rxg6 Bf8 White may have some advantage but certainly not a clear win. And if 25.b4 then 25...Ba4.

Dec-03-09  acirce: Kramnik's interesting Vienna "experiment" in this year's Tal Memorial - based on reviving the unusual 6..h6 - did not work out very well, neither here nor in Aronian vs Kramnik, 2009, and could have cost him the tournament victory. Of course, you could lose with Black against players of this strength no matter what you play, but Kramnik is very well prepared and rarely gets in trouble early.
Dec-04-09  Hesam7: <Eyal: The h4-h5 advance seems genuinely dangerous for Black in this formation, so 24...Qf6 (preventing h4) might make more sense in this line. Have you checked it?>

For some reason I had convinced myself that 24. ... Qxb2 was forced. After 24. ... Qf6 this is my first try 25. b4 Ba4 26. Bxg6+ Rxg6 27. Nxg6 Qxg6 28. Ng5+ Bxg5 29. Qxc8 Bxd1 30. Rxd1 Nc6 31. Qxb7:


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And this is already very close to winning. Unlike the R vs B+N ending in the 22. Nxe6 line here White has a mobile Q-side majority that should decide the game fairly soon.

Dec-07-09  Ulhumbrus: On 23 Ndxe6 Qxe5 24 Rfe1 Qf6 25 Re3 fxe6 an alternative to 26 Rxe6 is 26 Rg3 attacking the g6 pawn a fourth time. Then on 26...Qg5 27 Qxe6 Qxf4 28 Rxg6 threatens a discovered check in addition to Black's B on e7.
Dec-07-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: <Hesam7> I believe you're right - so 24.Rfe1 in the 23.Ndxe6 Qxe5 line might indeed be even stronger than 24.b4, and thus White's best winning chance.

<On 23 Ndxe6 Qxe5 24 Rfe1 Qf6 25 Re3 fxe6 an alternative to 26 Rxe6 is 26 Rg3> It loses to 26...Bd6!

Dec-09-09  Ulhumbrus: <<On 23 Ndxe6 Qxe5 24 Rfe1 Qf6 25 Re3 fxe6 an alternative to 26 Rxe6 is 26 Rg3> It loses to 26...Bd6!> On 23 Ndxe6 Qxe5 24 Rfe1 Qf6 25 Re3 fxe6 suppose white tries 26 Nxg6 Rxg6 and now 27 Rxe6
Dec-09-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: <On 23 Ndxe6 Qxe5 24 Rfe1 Qf6 25 Re3 fxe6 suppose white tries 26 Nxg6 Rxg6 and now 27 Rxe6>

After 27...Kh8! 28.Qxg6 (28.Bxg6? Bd7! 29.Rxd7 Rc1+ 30.Rd1 Qxe6!) 28...Qxg6 29.Rxg6 Bf8 this leads exactly to the same position I mentioned earlier as resulting from an immediate 26.Rxe6. Maybe a slight advantage to White, but far from clear; 25.b4 seems much more promising.

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