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Shakhriyar Mamedyarov vs Sergey Karjakin
World Cup (2009), Khanty-Mansiysk RUS, rd 5, Dec-04
Queen's Indian Defense: Kasparov-Petrosian Variation. Main Line (E12)  ·  1/2-1/2

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
Dec-04-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: "<30.Nxd5> would have given the Super-GM from Azerbaijan a good chance to seriously play for a win, but instead Mamedyarov opted for the more passive <30.Re2>, after which his 19-year-old Ukrainian opponent dropped the b-pawn but was able to hold the position without any more real danger."

http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp...

Dec-04-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: After <30.Nxd5 Ree8 31.Re2> both rooks moved away from the dangerous diagonals and it looks as if White is winning a second pawn on b6.


click for larger view

Dec-05-09  znsprdx: Still not convinced that 30.Nd5 was the big "missed opportunity" for White

from tournament pages Dec 4th:

Eyal: <znsprdx: 30...Bx[R]e3 If 31.Nx[B]e3 31...Qf7! seems like it would be all over>

All over for Black... White can play, for example, 32.Qb2 (defending f2) - and Black has to give back the exchange + another pawn, remaining in a hopeless position: 32...Bc8 33.Bxe6 Bxe6 34.Rd6.

Dec-05-09
<Eyal> re our discussion page 94 [which I will copy to actual CG game for the record]

Really? ..34 b5 if 35.Rb6 b4 (36.axb4 a4! 37.Ra6 Bb3) 36.Ra6 Bb3 37.Rb6 Bb3 there is still lots of play albeit difficult, but it is far from "hopeless" - Cute is the pseudo threat 38.e6+ Qg7 39. e7 Re8 and after the queen exchange - not much happening.

Dec-05-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: <znsprdx: Really? ..34 b5 if 35.Rb6 b4 (36.axb4 a4! 37.Ra6 Bb3) 36.Ra6 Bb3 37.Rb6 Bb3 there is still lots of play albeit difficult, but it is far from "hopeless" - Cute is the pseudo threat 38.e6+ Qg7 39. e7 Re8 and after the queen exchange - not much happening.>

No reason for White to be afraid of 36.axb4 a4 37.Ra6 Bb3 - there are many ways to win, but the most forcing one seems 38.e6+ Qg7 39.Qxg7+ Kxg7 40.Ng4! (with the threat 41.Ra7+ Kg8 [or 41...Kh8 42.e7 Re8 43.Nf6] 42.Nh6+ Kh8 43.e7 Re8 44.Nf7+ Kg7 45.Nd6) 40...g5 41.Ra7+ Kg6 42.e7 Re8 43.b5 etc. Or 40...Rf4 (vacating f8 for the king) 41.g3 Rf5 42.e7 Bf7 (42...Kf7 43.Nh6+ Kxe7 44.Nxf5+) 43.Ra7 Be8 44.Ra8 Kf7 45.Nh6+. With the rook on f3 instead of f5, similar tactics works with a knight check on e5 rather than h6.

37...Qd7 wouldn't help either, e.g. after 38.b5 Rb8 39.Qb4 Bb3 40.b6.

Dec-05-09  znsprdx: < Eyal:> OTB we are watching these SGM's missing one movers...OK I agree that maybe 30.Nd5 offered more play but my idea of the 'b' pawn push presents problems. Albeit your 40.Ng4 is certainly dynamic, however the point I am trying to make is that this would be 10 moves later at time control....to presume anything was 'forced' begs the question - since Mamedryov surely considered dozens of lines: perhaps even this fascinating possibility: the simple 30....Bg7 31.Nf6 Qc6 32.f3 (although Rf3 or g3 probably better) R[e]xN]f6 33.ex[R]f6 Bxf6 If 34.Re6 Qc5+ 35.Kh1 b5 36.Rd7 Be5!? 37.Rx[B]e5 Qx[R]e5 38.Rx[B]b7? Qe1+draws...
Anyway Ive enjoyed exploring this position - it is rich in resources - but Karjakin a point up realistically held the edge...I think being almost forced to play 19.h3 in a do or die struggle with a dead Bishop on h2 vs. the killer knight on f4 left White the passive 'b'pawn plan. Although it succeeded it did do so with BOOC - not quite enough...
Dec-05-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: <znsprdx: Albeit your 40.Ng4 is certainly dynamic, however the point I am trying to make is that this would be 10 moves later at time control....>

I want to make clear that I am definitely <not> claiming Mamedyarov had to see this specific line in order to play 30.Nxd5 – like I said, there should be several other ways to win as well, and I just gave it because you were claiming that a specific line leading to it can save Black, and I was trying to illustrate as effectively as possible that it doesn't. The way I see it, the position after 30.Nxd5 Bxe3 31.Nxe3 so overwhelmingly favors White that there's no real need to enter into calculating very long lines; noting that Black has to give back the exchange, a general assessment, and making sure Black doesn't have any special tactical tricks, should suffice. (This is confirmed by computer evaluation, btw, which gives White something close to +3 advantage at this stage, not depending on any specific forced line.)

It also should be noted that 30...Bxe3 is actually a very weak move by Black - he can do better; the point is that this is an obvious threat, or possible refutation, that has to be considered in order to ensure 30.Nxd5 is playable. The more general point is that after 30.Nxd5 White is a pawn up - but unlike the actual game, he retains the strong e5 pawn.

Dec-05-09  znsprdx: <Eyal> Restating your original point does not meet the standard of objectivity, so tit-for-tat I'll do the same by simply saying the position leaves Black considerable play, and that there is nothing demonstrably forcing, not withstanding irrelevant computer analysis: (because as I pointed out OTB these guys can even miss one movers) Karjakin controlled the game enough to at worst assure a draw. However I am intrigued by your observation that Black can do better than Bxe3 and as you see I suggested Bg7. Perhaps we should check out what the players themselves thought....
Dec-06-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: <Restating your original point does not meet the standard of objectivity, so tit-for-tat I'll do the same>

The difference is that I refuted your suggested line (40.Ng4 in that line is winning by force, not just "dynamic" as you chose to vaguely gloss it), whereas you only repeat your original point without any further attempt to substantiate it by real analysis, beyond the use of the vague and non-committal phrase "considerable play".

<not withstanding irrelevant computer analysis: (because as I pointed out OTB these guys can even miss one movers>

Why irrelevant? The position after 30.Nxd5 Bxe3 31.Nxe3 is exactly the kind of open middlegame positions where engines are usually most strong and reliable (unlike openings, or certain types of closed positions, or certain types of endgame positions). Of course, it shouldn't be <necessary> to use an engine to determine that the position after 31.Nxe3 in this line is winning for White, but such a big evaluation in his favor - which does <not> depend on any special "one-movers", as I already mentioned - is certainly relevant evidence to support human evaluation. Btw, the GM commentator of chesspro (http://www.google.com/translate?hl=...) also mentions 30.Nxd5! Bxe3? 31.Nxe3 as something which is evidently unplayable for Black, without even requiring further analysis.

PS your "fascinating" [30.Nxd5] Bg7?? loses instantly to 31.Nf4.

Dec-07-09  znsprdx: <eyal> I didn't mean to belitte your finding Ng4 - I think you are missing the spirit of my initial point. I remain intrigued as what has been suggested as best for Black if 30.Nxd5 - after all Mamedryov surely rejected it for good reason...

Sorry about Bg7 post I mixed up my notes..I'd been looking at Nxb6 - obviously Nf4 is crushing.

Dec-07-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: <I remain intrigued as what has been suggested as best for Black if 30.Nxd5 - after all Mamedryov surely rejected it for good reason...>

Or not... Here are the rather odd comments he himself made about it in the press conference after the game:

<I played a good game and I think that I had an advantage. I didn't play [sic. but maybe this should be "I saw"] Nd5 which would win instantly. But when he played Re6 for some reason I played Re2. I knew that Nd5 would win the game and when I didn't play it, I was very upset. Nevertheless I still had an advantage, but when a won position changes to only a better position you don't feel so good. I don't know why I didn't play that move which would have led to my victory.> (http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt...; translation of http://extratime.az/article.php?aid...)

Dec-08-09  Augalv: Commentary at:http://karjakin.blogspot.com/2009/1...

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