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|Nov-04-12|| ||wlg: 20....h6?! Nh3 21.Qg4
I agree 20....Ne4! is better
|Nov-04-12|| ||morfishine: No Luck for me. I kept looking for an "insane" move...I'm still looking :)|
|Nov-04-12|| ||Phony Benoni: That's it. I'm not doing any more Sunday puzzles. I actually counted the pieces in the diagrammed position, and still missed that Black was a piece down!|
If I can't even count pieces correctly, then it's obvious I'll never understand the puzzle itself.
|Nov-04-12|| ||An Englishman: Good Morning: 21.Be3 stumped me, so congratulations to the people who spotted that. Seriously though, if the puzzle had been 18...Black to Play, would anyone have solved it?|
|Nov-04-12|| ||Jimfromprovidence: This puzzle lives up to its insane billing.
One hurdle I had was seeing that 20…Ne4 is better than 20…Ng4. Finally it dawned on me that 20…Ng4 allows 21 Qb6, below, diffusing black’s attack.
click for larger view
On the other hand, the text 20…Ne4 now prevents 21 Qb6 because of 21…Bc5, below.
click for larger view
So white had to see that and also worked out that 20…Ne4 21 Nxe4 was winning. Very impressive.
|Nov-04-12|| ||sfm: <Phony Benoni: That's it. I'm not doing any more Sunday puzzles. I actually counted the pieces in the diagrammed position, and still missed that Black was a piece down!>|
LOL! Even among the two players this happens quite often. I remember many hilarious stories from my old chess club.
One of our young players had a trick where he in hopeless positions would hide an knight in the hand he moved with, and with a magician's skills slipped it onto the board while moving another piece. Surprisingly often he got away with it, and the game would continue for many moves before he with a big grin resigned, and asked his opponent if he didn't think something strange had happened? "It works best with knights" he told us. "Sometimes I can even have 3 of them on the board."
Another quite strong player once proudly showed us young players a very complicated game where an very clever combination left him a piece ahead. We were very impressed, until somebody pointed out that the combination gave nothing, but he was already a piece ahead before his first sacrifice.
<If I can't even count pieces correctly, then it's obvious I'll never understand the puzzle itself.>
Not so! We chess players are combinatorical geniuses - not accountants!
Hopefully no accountant will will read this and get the - wrong - impression that I believe that an accountant could not be creative and adventure-seeking. As this video clearly describes:
|Nov-04-12|| ||Phony Benoni: <sfm> I was originally an accounting major in college, but gave it up for the wild and crazy world of librarianship. Now I know why.|
|Nov-04-12|| ||jancotianno: Nothing for me today went through Ng4 and thought it was winning but missed Qb6 :(|
|Nov-04-12|| ||agb2002: Black is a knight and a pawn down.
White might consider 21.Nxf7 simplifying the game and being one exchange and two pawns up.
The first move that comes to mind is 20... Bc5, threatening mate in two:
A) 21.Ne3 Qe1+ 22.Nf1 Qxf2+ 23.Kh1 Qg1#.
B) 21.Be3 Bxe3
B.1) 22.Nxe3 Rd2
B.1.a) 23.Rf1 Ng4 (23... Qxe3 24.Qd8+ (24.fxe3 Rxg2+ 24.Kh1 Rxg5+ and mate in three) 24... Rxd8 25.fxe3 + /- [P]) 24.Nxg4 (24.Qb6 Nxe3 25.Qxe3 Qxe3 26.fxe3 Rxg2+ 27.Kh1 Rxg5+ and mate in three) 24... Qxg4 regains the knight while keeping the attack.
B.1.b) 23.Nh3 Ng4 24.Qb6 (24.Nxg4 Qxg4 25.g3 Qxh3 - +) 24... Nxf2 25.Nxf2 Qxf2+ 26.Kh1 Bxg2+ 27.Nxg2 Qxg2#.
B.2) 22.fxe3 Qxg2#.
B.3) 22.Nh3 Ng4 23.Bd1 Bxf2+ and mate soon.
C) 21.Nh3 Qe4 22.Nf4 (22.Ne3 Bxe3 23.Nf4 Bxf4 - +) 22... Nh5
C.1) 23.Be3 Nxf4 24.f3 Bxe3+ 25.Kh1 (25.Nxe3 Qxe3+ 26.Kh1 Qe2 27.Rg1 Bxf3 - +) 25... Qxf3 26.Nxe3 Qxe3 - + [N].
C.2) 23.Ne3 Nxf4 - +, and the threats 24... Bxe3 and 24... Nxg2 will cost more material.
|Nov-04-12|| ||agb2002: According to Houdini White can play 24.Qc7 instead of 24.Nxg4 in my line B.1.a and will deliver mate in five.|
Better luck next Sunday.
|Nov-04-12|| ||chrisowen: Edict in er mind queens ready to battle i believe it is book |
knowledge in g5 little known line yes h3 i a tussle for knight in go
to the wall ace d5 prevent infiltrate f7 longer denouement takes
place later ditto equality ramble in whisk off as d5 i key it rookd7
in bad just again queen tonic for curious in a5 instead f4 coin
operated in having lead 1 pawn up tie a knight agree in black has
tool in his develop it tire in rubbing c2 chalk off b3 in feed him.
|Nov-04-12|| ||chrisowen: Yurij dangle his queen in e2 you pro fence ogle in e4 threaten e2 in |
alongside it her ring queen and knight big gain set to go off in
colla - boration all blacks pieces hound a battering ram against a
f2 in together e1 bc5!s the ke yes now in b6 black has right in c5
to really compound queen thats why it essential one in e4 first
gamble at sheepish in e3 then e4 rolls in f2 and c5 backs the
renegade bishop in e3 giving access ok free g2 question fashion in a
crier of town bells h3 cover among in f2 angle white in ghosting
bind rooka1 puts in the mood for c5 path in cover e1 dint it another
b3 in c2 aint it simple for knightd2 in giving resistance crushing
lesson in a1q trapped in a5 whilst obituary you in wolf at the door
f1 has nowhere staple roof in scatter ti ar yin and yang queen
oversees me a golly it ringer true ne4!
|Nov-04-12|| ||rilkefan: <<chrisowen>: Edict in er mind queens>|
<<chrisowen>: Yurij dangle his queen in>
Could it be we have discovered a rosetta stone?
|Nov-04-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: Part 1
<20...Ng4! 21. Be3 Nxf2! 22. Bxf2>
(22. Ng3 Nh3+! 23. Nxh3 Qxg2#; 22. Bxf7+ Kh8 ; 22. Nxf7 Nh3+ 23. any Qg2#)
<22...Bc5! 23. Nh3>
(23. Bxc5 Qxg2#)
A) 24. Nf4 Bxf2+ 25. Kxf2 (25. Kh1? Qe4 ) 25...Qxf4+ 26. Kg1 [26. Ke2 Re7+ 27. Kd1 (27. Kd3 Be4+ 28. Kd4 - 28. Ke2 Bc2+ 29. Ne3 Rxe3+ 30. Kd2 Qf2+ 31. Kc1 Re1# - 28...Bf3+ 29. Kd3 - 29. Kc5 Re5+ wins in all variations - 29...Qe4+ 30. Kd2 Rd7+ 31. Kc1 Qe1+ 32. Kc2 Bd1+ mates) 27...Qxf1+ 28. Kc2 (28. Kd2 Rd7+ wins) 28...Qe2+ 29. Kc1 (29. Kb1 Qe1+ 30. Kc2 Be4#) 29...Qe3+ 30. Be4+ Kd1 31. Rd7+ mates; 26. Ke1 Re7+ 27. Kd1 Qxf1+ wins as already shown] 26...Qe4! 27. Kf2 [27. Ne3 Qxe3+ 28. Kh1 (28. Kf1 Rd2 ) 28...Bxg2+ 29. Kxg2 Rd2+ mating] 27...Qxg2+ 28. Ke1 (28. Ke3 Qf3#) 28...Re7+ wins as already shown.
B) 24. Ne3 Bxe3 25. Kf1 (25. Bxe3 Qxg2#) 25...Qxg2+ 26. Ke1 [26. Ke2 Qf3+ 27. Ke1 (27. Kf1 Qxh3+ 28. Ke1 Bd2+ 29. Kd1 - 29. Ke2 Qd3+ is the same - 29...Qf3+ 30. Kc2 Qd3+ 31. Kd1 Bxc3+ 32. Kc1 Qd2+ 33. Kb1 Qxb2#] 26...Bd2+ 27. Kd1 (27. Ke2 Bf3#) 27...Qf3+ 28. Kc2 Qd3+ 29. Kd1 Bxc3+ 30. Kc1 Qd2+ 31. Kb1 Qxb2#
A) 21. Nxf7?? Qxf2+ 22. Kh1 Q/Bxg2#
B) 21. f3?? Qf2+ 22. Kh1 Qxf1#
C) 21. Ne3?? Qxf2+ 22. Kh1 Bxg2+ 23. Nxg2 Qf1#
D) 21. Nf3? Qxf2+ 22. Kh1 Qxf1+ 23. Nf1 Q/Bxg2# or 23...Nf2#
E) 21. Bxf7+ Rxf7! and Black wins due to the immense pressure on both f2 and g2.
F) The best defense looks like 21. Nh3! Bc5! 22. Be3 [22. Ne3 Qe1+ 23. Nf1 Bxf2+ 24. Nxf2 (24. Kh1 Qxf1#) 24...Qxf2+ 25. Kh1 Q/Bxg2# or 25...Qxf1#; 22. Nf4? Qxf2+ 23. Kh1 Qxf1#/...Qg1#; 22. Bxf7+ Rxf7! 23. Qd8+ Rf8 24. Qd2 Rxf2! 25. Qxe2 (25. Qd8+ Rf8+ mating) 25...Rxg2+ 26. Kh1 Rg1#] 22...Bxe3! 23. Nxe3 Nxe3 24. Nf4! Qd2!? (The idea is that the queen covers against White playing 25. Re1) and Black has a good game and pressure against White's Kingside.
|Nov-04-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: Stockfish: 20...Ng4 21. Qb6!
Stockfish: 20...Ne4 21. Qb6? Bc5
|Nov-04-12|| ||morfishine: Hi <BOSTER>! On your comment <When a Master considers a candidate move, which he instinctively wants to play, he tries to refute it....Non-masters, like <vin>, try to confirm their move,they try prove this move is good> This is one of the most important rules of playing and solving: Try to refute your own move instead of forcing it to be good.|
If you don't refute it, and there's a hole in your analysis, then someone else will find it. If it holds up, then you've got something
|Nov-04-12|| ||Patriot: I agree completely with <BOSTER> and <morf>. Trying to refute your own moves is key to becoming a better analyst.|
|Nov-04-12|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <newzild> <According to Rybka, this is the main line:
20...Ne4 21. Nh3 Qe1 22. Qb6>
With this line comes more fireworks; say after, 22…Bc5 23 Be3 Qxa1.
click for larger view
What does white do now?
He can’t play 24 Bxc5?? because of 24…Nd2!, with forced mate.
His queen has one safe square, a5, but if he tries 24 Qa5 ,then black has 24...Bxe3 followed by 25...Nd2.
There is a way to minimize material loss.
|Nov-04-12|| ||vinidivici: refute, confirm, refute, confirm. D'OH
The problem is when to refute when to confirm.
If you always refute, someday u will refute a right line making urself a wrong line.
So it all comes down to good and deep calculations so you can refute or confirm.
Refute, refute, refute, lol....really?
<Trying to refute your own moves is key to becoming a better analyst.>
<But in 2006 I was class D (~1300)>
Had you try COMBINED refuting and confirming instead of always refuting, you've been a better player than class D player. Im just giving u a good advice, although im maybe far younger than you but i have much better FIDE rating.
<If anyone wishes to critique my analysis or ideas, feel free to do so. I won't take it personally.>
Im just following your suggest to criticize you. I really hope can gave you a useful advice. take care.
|Nov-04-12|| ||Patriot: <vini> No problem. However, you'd better listen to <BOSTER> on this.|
|Nov-05-12|| ||nariga: <Patriot> What about 20...Ne4? 21.Nxe4 Qxe4 22.Ne3 Bc5 23.Bc2 Rd1+ 24.Bxd1 Bxe3 |
Here 25. Qd8+ is mate.
|Nov-05-12|| ||Abdel Irada: <vinidivici>: <BOSTER>, <morfishine> and <Patriot> are correct. |
The most rigorous way to analyze a candidate move, employed by virtually every strong player, is to apply the scientific method.
What we in chess call "refutation" is known to experimental science as "falsification." In essence, this entails proposing a move (theory) and then testing it by attempting to prove it wrong.
This process minimizes the effects of confirmation bias, which otherwise invalidates results by corrupting the analysis/experimentation process. When one tries to confirm a move/theory rather than attempt to refute/falsify it, it's too easy to fall into the trap of formulating an idea and then trying to make the facts fit it.
In chess, fortunately, it is far easier to prove that someone has done this than in some scientific disciplines. If this were not so, then unsound puzzle solutions would still be as much a matter of controversy as is global warming or string theory.
|Nov-05-12|| ||Abdel Irada: I sometimes wish Sunday came on a different day of the week.|
While I really enjoy the challenge of the Sunday puzzles, I often find myself unable to work on them until after the deadline because it is precisely on Sunday that, owing to my odd schedule, I am often busiest.
Having squeezed in a bit of analysis, I cannot take any real credit. One thing was immediately clear: Down on material in exchange for a (temporary) lead in development, Black has to bring the attack to bear forthwith, and the obvious target square is f2. The only question was which of three moves was the correct way to attack it.
I did look at some really spectacular lines (including several queen sacs leading to back-rank mates), and I did successfully rule out 21. ...Ng4, but I was still undecided between 21. ...Bc5 (which looked as though it failed, but still had a few wrinkles to examine) and 21. ...Ne4.
This last move was the last I looked at because of a natural aversion to exchanging pieces when down material and on the attack, but quickly found that taking it is a bad idea for White; the only move that seems to put up a fight is 22. Nh3.
Maybe we can start putting the Sunday puzzles up on Monday? ;-S
|Nov-05-12|| ||Abdel Irada: In my preceding post, please read all 21s as 20s.
I just played over the game, and must confess that I never considered 21. ...Qe1. I like to think that if I'd taken a bit more time, I would have looked at it, but I'm not certain.
As my actual calculations went, I looked at, e.g., 20. ...Ne4; 21. Nh3, Bc5; 22. Be3, Bxe3; 23. Nxe3, Nxf2; 24. Nxf2, Qxe3; 25. Rf1, Qg5; 26. g3, Qc5; 27. Qb4, Qc6; 28. Qe4, Qxe4; 29. Nxe4, Bxe4; 30. Rd1, Rxd1†; 31. Bxd1, Bd5; 32. b3, Kf8, with a probable draw. (Of course, White's 25. Rf1, 27. Qb4 and 28. Qe4 are not forced, and White may have improvements.)
|Nov-12-12|| ||The Last Straw: <Dr.J> Is this you? Dr. J|
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