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Marc Dutreeuw vs Csaba Horvath
EUR-chT (Men) 10th (1992), Debrecen HUN, rd 7, Nov-27
Sicilian Defense: Kan. Modern Variation (B42)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-23-12  WhiteRook48: Oh. I said, 17 Qxh5 gxh5 18 Rg3+ Bg7 19 Rxg7+ Kxg7 20 Nxe6+ followed by 21 Nxc7. Not the best, but the best I could find.
Sep-23-12  Patriot: I just noticed another flaw: <For example, 20.Nxe6 Rxe6 21.Rxf7+ Re5 (else a possible draw)> No draw; if 21...Kg8 22.Rg7+ Kh8 23.Rxd7+ blasts him out of the water! I only saw the possibility of a draw and didn't analyze it because black is the one trying to prove white's line doesn't work! So 21...Re5 became the only option at that point.
Sep-23-12  Zatrikion: 17.Qxh5! gxh5 <(or else Black is a piece down)> 18.Rg3+ Bg7

The other 2 options lose immediately:
a) 18..Bg5 19.Rxg5+ Kh8 20.Nxe6+ f6 21.Bxf6+ R(N)xf6 22.Nxc7, White is a piece and two pawns up b) 18..Kh8 20.Nxe6+ f6 21.Nxc7, White is a piece and a pawn up

Back in the main line:
19.Nxe6!! Q is on threat, so either Black moves the Q or takes the N. A) If Black takes the N with:
i) 19..Rxe6
20.Rxg7+ Kh8
21.Rxf7+ Nf6 <(21..Rg8 22.Kg7+ Kh8 23.Rxd7+ and Rxc7 1-0)> 22.Rxc7, White 1 piece, 2P up!
ii) 19..fxe6
20.Rxg7+ Kh8
21.Rxd7+ and Rxc7, White 2 pieces up!

B) If Black moves the Q:
19..Qc8 <(better square than the other 2 alternatives Qc6, Qb8)> 20.Rxg7+ Kh8
21.Rxf7+ Nf6 <(21..Kg8, 22.Rg7+ Kh8 23.Rxd7+ Kg8 24.Rg7+ and Rxb7 and finally Rxc8, Black is getting slaughtered!)> 22.Bxf6+ Kg8
23.Rg7+ Kh8
24.Nxf8 Qa8 <(where else to be secure? If 24..Rxf8 25.Rc7+ Rxf6 26.Rxc8 Bxc8, White 1 piece, 2P up)> 25.Nxh7! Re6
26.Bb2 and the discovered checks will go on until Q is captured 1-0

Sep-23-12  The Last Straw: I got only 17.Qxh5.
Sep-23-12  LoveThatJoker: <The Last Straw> Give yourself a pat on the back, dude!

Your Chess knowledge led you to find and feel the validity of 17. Qxh5 being a winner for White. If getting the entire puzzle is a Home Run today, then simply feeling/finding the correctness of 17. Qxh5 gets you on base; as if you get an Ichiro-patented base hit!

Excellent stuff and here's to you hitting one out of the park next Sunday!!

Cheers,

LTJ

Sep-23-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: The material is equal.

White has the opportunity of opening lines to attack the black king with 17.Qxh5 gxh5 18.Rg3+ (18.Nb5 axb5 19.Rg3+ Bg7 20.Rxg7+ Kh8 21.Rxf7+ e5 - +):

A) 18... Kh8 19.Nxe6+ f6 20.Nxc7 + - [N+P].

B) 18... Bg7 19.Nxe6 (19.Rxg7+ Kh8 unclear)

B.1) 19... fxe6 20.Rxg7+ Kh8 21.Rxd7+ + -.

B.2) 19... Rxe6 20.Rxg7+ Kh8 21.Rxf7+ Re5 (21... Ne5 22.Rxc7 + -; 21... Kg8 22.Rg7+ Kh8 23.Rxd7+ + -) 22.Bxe5+ dxe5 23.Rfxd7 (23.Rdxd7 Rxf7 24.Rxc7 Rxc7 unclear) and although the material is more or less balanced, [R+N+2P vs Q], White only needs to improve the mobility of his bishop, while Black has many lasting weaknesses.

Sep-23-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  paulalbert: I followed some of the commentary with interest. Perhaps this one is not as insane as usual; even I saw Qxh5 as the start followed by Nxe6 and Rxg7 creating a windmill threat, but the Re5 blockage nips continuing the windmill in the bud, so you have to see all the followup variations to know you have a win, which I did not, so to that extent there was an element of insane challenge. I certainly agree that seeing the key Qxh5 and even a couple of the following moves does not constitute finding the solution. And in these chessgames puzzles we at least know there is a solution to look for ( although we get an occasional curveball from chessgames ); however, nobody rings a bell when your playing signalling, there's a forced win, now find it, so even if you get 7 out of 7 here, you have to be cautious about what that really implies about one's chess playing strength. I remember Spielmann's comment to the effect that he could see Alekhine's winning combinations, but could never create positions in his own games where there were opportunities for such combinations.
Sep-23-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: Hello <Patriot> On your comment <19...Kxg7 20.Nf5+? Kg6 How did I miss that?> If its any consolation, I too had <20.Nf5++> as winning before seeing <20...Kg6> at the last moment. That was a close one.

I still stuck with <19.Rxg7+> instead of an immediate <19.Nxe6>. I guess the real beauty of the puzzle lay in the various pins along the a1-h8 diagonal, the d-file and the seventh rank once Black's rook was pinned on <e5>.

Insane? no Complicated? yes

Sep-23-12  JRMenezes: It seems many here feel that just finding the winning move and a few follow up moves, say up to move 23, is not actually finding the solution. So are you people saying that in order to find the solution one has to calculate right up to move 32?! I just would like to know if you people are f**king insane? I don't think even Gary Kasparov or Magnus Carlsen could have done that.
Sep-23-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <JRMenezes> Some of us are that far gone.
Sep-23-12  Patriot: <morf> Thanks! 20...Kg6 was just not visible for whatever reason. 19.Rxg7+ was very direct, leaving room for a discovered check and potentially a mate. I too went with that line.

<JRMenezes> LOL--You're probably right! That would be insane.

Sep-23-12  The Last Straw: <Love That Joker> Nooooooo, pleeeeeeeease!!!!!
Sep-23-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <JRMenezes> I'm with you on this one. Here's the position after 23. Rfxd7


click for larger view

Fritzie says that there are four sensible queen retreats from this position - Qc6, Qc5, Qb8 and Qc8. All score between +1 and +1.25.

Let's stay with the game for a little while longer. After 23...Qc5 24. Ne3, Fritzie offers 24...Bc8 (+1.08), 24...Ba8 (+1.49) and 24...Qc8 (+1.98)

Two more game moves 24...Bc8 25. R7d5, and here again Fritzie is offering a multitude of choices - Qc7, Qa3, Qe7, Qc6 and Qb4 all occupy the ground between +1 and +2.

In other words, it's a veritable thicket of possible variations. White doesn't haven't many moves to force black's reply. That in turn means that black has lots of choices. Which makes it very very difficult to calculate all the way to move 32.

The trick, I find, is not to get too hung up on other people's analysis or prejudices about how far you have to see. You need to see far enough to satisfy yourself that the first move is worth playing. No-one else is judging this apart from yourself.

Sep-23-12  The Last Straw: <LoveThatJoker>I play correspondence on QueenAlice as guest12345, and you've got to see how horrible I play in real life. And I only have a rating of 1244. Oh but on chess.com my rating is 1336 (username: SimonWebbTiger) and I haven't lost any games yet.
Sep-23-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Hinge at really it (being delve) in mind 17.Qxh5 im licking rook

across after hint it sac in h5 arc, rook over in sat I light rookg3+

up bishop i net in covering g7 hole nest hustle in takee6 to release

bishop rook might along axis ally together broken chain gang rook up

im seventh heave now king to corner and rook is an animal it seem in

mopping up ply it arrow for f7+ either in have re5 to juxtapose

again bishop flight enact in b2xe5+ re ignoble defeat staring down

the barrel it yeah in dread rook sweep chances to dream away it h5

in delight cog rook now has c7 ape go at peg back house queen

dressing down c5 looks like plus for white of course I cant be sure

i gnaw angle for opening position (pawns could flow) freely it d5 in

god we true street in dfiles fcolomn promote again c6 ar good in

ghosting along here h5 wins on the spot re5 as on apost in blocking

b2 however, i neap tide flowing box inc. At rook gg rescind coats

hanger h5!

Sep-23-12  LoveThatJoker: <The Last Straw> I just went to www.queenalice.com. It looks like a decent online correspondence site for sure.

In regards to everything else, as a fellow Chess player and friend in the game, I want to say that I hope you continue learning, winning more games, and improving your rating!

That goes for myself too!

Keep up the good work!

LTJ

Sep-23-12  James D Flynn: Material is equal but White has greater control of the centre and his pieces are more active, his K also is is secure whereas the Black K has the threatening black square B, currently blocked by his own pieces , staring into his vicinity e.g 17.Qxh5 gxh5 18.Rg3+ Kh8 19.Nxe6+ f6 20.Nxc7 and White has won a N and a P and opened lines onto Blacks K. 17.Qxh5 gxh5 18.Rg3+ Bg7 19.Rxg7+(if Nxe6 Rxe6(if fxe6 20.Rxg7+ Kh8 21.Rxd7+ e5(or Kg8) 22.Rxc7 and White has won 2 pieces and a pawn) 20.Rxg7+ Kh8 21.Rxf7+ Re5 22.Rxf8+ Nxf8 23.f4 White has only a R, B, and 2 pawns for his Q)Kh8(if Kxg7 20.Nxe5+ Kg8 21.Nxc7 and White has won 2 pieces and a pawn for his R, and after Rc8 22.Nd5 he still has a strong attack against the open Black K position.)Kh8 20.Nxe6+ Rxe6 21.Rxf7+ Re5 22.Rxd7 Qxd7 23.Bxe5+ Kg8 24.Bxd6 White has 2 pieces and 3 pawns for his Q but his pieces and the e and f pawns dominate the board. He will next play Ne3 and at an opportune moment Nf5 whereupon the Nh6# threat will come into play.
Sep-23-12  Old Wolf: I don't think it's enough to see just to move 23. You have to assess the end position. White has a rook and knight , Black has a queen. Those situations can go both ways, for example if White didn't have the defence of Ne3 to the mate threat then the result could have been very different.

You've got to check that in the final position there are no more tactics for Black, and that White has sufficient piece coordination and activity.

Sep-23-12  Tiggler: <An Englishman: Good Evening: This was not an easy Sunday, but after about 15 minutes of thinking I managed to solve it.>

<GauraNitai: Finding Qxh5 and Nxe6 and then it's quite a smooth ride. You're done if you fairly see till Rxd7>

These are just two examples of posts that grossly underestimate this puzzle. The game continuation is a brilliant win, but I question whether the winner or any of our puzzlers could see through all the immense complications to the win. Even our best engines could not do it in an OTB time control - the game line is 29-ply deep and more to prove the win.

I believe this is a psychological puzzle: why, in a position did white decide to go "all in" with the Q sac? Did he need the win, instead of just a chance to win? Did the clock situation suggest that white expected to find better threats than black could find defenses? Or did he just, "feel lucky, punk?"

As a punk player myself, I might well have gone for it, and I might even have found the right moves later. But plan it all through: gedoudahere!

Sep-23-12  colorvis: one of the more interesting games here
Sep-23-12  TheBish: M Dutreeuw vs C Horvath, 1992

White to play (17.?) "Insane"

I think the first move is fairly obvious, but maybe there something tricky about the follow-up.

17. Qxh5! gxh5

Obviously forced, or Black is just a piece down.

18. Rg3+ Bg7

Or 18...Kh8 19. Nxe6+ followed by 20. Nxc7.

19. Nxe6 Rxe6

Or 19...fxe6 20. Rxg7+ Kh8 21. Rxd7+.

20. Rxg7+ Kh8 21. Rxf7+ Re5

Or 21...Kg8 22. Rg7+ Kh8 23. Rxd7+ and 24. Rxc7.

22. Bxe5+ dxe5 23. Rdxd7 Rxf7 24. Rxc7 Rxc7 and White wins.

Sep-24-12  M.Hassan: "Insane"
White to play 26.?
Even materials.

26.Qxh5 to open the g file
26.............gxh5
27.Rg3+ Bg7
28.Nb5
Bishop 'eyes' on the pinned Bishop on g7 and Knight attacks the Queen <if...axb5 29.Rxg7+ Kh8 30.Rg5#>

28............f6
29.Nxc7
White falls ahead by at least a Knight.

If on move 26, Queen sac is declined:
26.Qxh5 Bg7
27.Qd1
White has gained a Knight and a possible continuation could be:

27...........Rae8
28.a4 Nc5
29.Re3 e5
30.Ne2 f5
31.exf5 Qc6
32.Rg3 gxf5
And White has the advantage.

Sep-24-12  Abdel Irada: <<>Unspeakable arrogance: a confession>

I owe <ChessGames.com> an apology, and everyone who has ever read my solution posts and trusted in their integrity.

When I saw the puzzle position, at first glance so simple, I failed to examine it in sufficient depth, failed entirely to consider that, for example, Black might capture on e6 with the rook and later interpose on e5 with that rook, or that he might *not* accept the exchange offer on g7. These omissions were sufficient to make of what I called a trivial march to victory a veritable _Aeneid_ of trials to undergo on the way to a longed-for but elusive triumph. Over the board, they might have sufficed to turn a promising position into a hopeless wreck of White's game.

This, in itself, could be excused. Anyone can be careless; anyone can fail to see all the variations in a complex of thrusts, parries and ripostes.

But my sin was not carelessness. It was dogmatism. I set about "solving" this puzzle with all the earnest certitude of a half-educated whelp setting out to prove that the Earth really *is* flat after all. My thesis: that <CG.com>'s puzzle picker was incompetent, using this (to my incorrect analysis) simple puzzle in conjunction with some other recent offerings that have proven easier than billed as evidence.

In the end, all I proved was that it does not do to approach any undertaking with prejudice.

Although this puzzle was perhaps not as complex as some Sunday puzzles past, it was certainly not simple. There really were "tricky variations," and had I not been blinded by a false thesis, I might have found them.

As it is, I can only apologize and hope not to repeat my error.

Sep-24-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <Abdel Irada> <Tiggler> <Old Wolf>

Three different posts, but all questioning whether we need to see all the way "to the end".

With the greatest of respect I beg to differ. POTDs are not puzzles in the traditional sense. Instead, they are positions from real games.

This means that there isn't always one "correct" solution. This is not "white to play and mate in 15". We are challenged to find the best move in the position. Sometimes we can chase that best move down to a resignable position, a draw or a forced win. But not always.

Today's puzzle is a case in point. The combination starting with 17. Qxh5 does not lead to a forced mate or a certain draw. By move 23 we get to a position where both players have many choices, but white has a small material and positional plus. There is no point in looking for a clear "solution" from that point. As I said, this is not a puzzle.

I recall reading a letter to a hifi magazine. One of the hifi hobbyists was a fan of early punk rock, but was disappointed with the quality of the sound reproduction he was getting fro his oh-so expensive equipment. No matter how much he spent or fiddled with the settings, the music always sounded muddy, imprecise, raw.

The magazine's reply has stuck in my memory ever since. They said: "The early punk records were not recorded with much fidelity themselves. That was part of the appeal. So don't go looking for a precise sound. It just isn't there."

When it comes to a saturday/ sunday POTDs, somtimes the same thing applies. From time to time we get a forced mate (like yesterday). But more often we shouldn't go looking for a definitive solution.

Because it just isn't there.

Sep-24-12  Tiggler: <Once>:<I recall reading a letter to a hifi magazine. One of the hifi hobbyists was a fan of early punk rock, but was disappointed with the quality of the sound reproduction he was getting fro his oh-so expensive equipment. No matter how much he spent or fiddled with the settings, the music always sounded muddy, imprecise, raw.>

Reminds me of some sleeve notes of an album of Jimmy Hendrix recorded by the BBC. Apparently a sound engineer spent days trying to rid the sound of "distortion" before giving up in bafflement.

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