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Stephen J Redford vs Carpediem M Madiba
Commonwealth and South African Open (2011), Gauteng RSA, rd 6, Jun-28
Sicilian Defense: Old Sicilian. Open (B32)  ·  1-0



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Aug-21-12  gofer: White is a whole rook up so ANY move is winning! But I suppose we are meant to find a move to force black to resign, which should have happened already!

30 Qxg6+ Kf8 (hxg6 31 Rh8#)
31 Rxh7 Rxh7
32 Qxh7

White is now a rook and two pawns up, mate is coming, surely black will throw in the towel?


Why are some people suggesting 31 Qxf7? This seems a rather silly way to give up one's queen!

31 Rxh7 ...

gives black no alternative except to trade rooks or be mated

31 ... Rxh7
32 Qxh7 ...

and that exchange leaves the white queen on the board, traps the black king on the back rank gives black very few options!

32 ... Ke8 33 Qg8 Bf8 34 Qf7#
32 ... Bishop anywhere 33 Qf7#
32 ... Qe8 33 Qg7#
32 ... Q anywhere else 33 Qxe7+ Kg8 34 Qg7#
32 ... a5/d5 33 Qg7+ Ke8 34 Qg8 Bf8 35 Qf7#

So really there is only one option.

32 ... e5

If you want to be blood-thisty then you might play 33 Qh8+ Kf7 34 Qxd8 winning the queen, but that isn't necessary! A quiet move seals black's fate as it ensure black must move into one of the mating lines above...

33 Be3 ...

I would like to check my thoughts againt <Crafty EGT>, but he seems to be down at the moment... poor thing...


Secondly, does <Carpe Diem> have any place in the chess?

Even a recklous sacrifice has some fore-thought about it. Chess concerns planning for the future and then seizing the APPROPRIATE moment to attack, not simply attacking because the sun has risen...


Time to get back under my rock...

Aug-21-12  poszvald: 30, Qxg6+ Kf6 (hxg6 Rh8#)
31, Rxh7 Rxh7
32, Qxh7 and black can not do anithing against mate on the short term.
Aug-21-12  zb2cr: Things get started with 30. Qxg6+. Black can respond with 30. ... hxg6, or 30. ... Rg7 and be mated immediately with 31. Rh8# or 31. Qxg7#, respectively. The more interesting line is 30. Kf8, Rxh7 with White up by a R+2P with dreadful threats.
Aug-21-12  Tired Tim: <Gofer ...does <Carpe Diem> have any place in the chess?> Well of course it does! Seize the moment, not recklessly, but when all is ready and the opponent hasn't got the defences in place.

Sacrificing on f7 before black has castled is typically a carpe diem moment - it's not always sound but it doesn't have to be reckless,

Aug-21-12  gofer: <Tired Tim>:

If we are going to base our chess tactics on philosphy that is over 2000 years old then my choice would be a little further East...

"All warfare is based on deception."

Aug-21-12  Marmot PFL: The extra rook on b7 is not very aesthetic, but it serves a purpose in prventing black's escape after 30 Qxg6+ Kf8 31 Rxh7 Rxh7 32 Qxh7 Ke8.
Aug-21-12  Castleinthesky: Sometimes you "seize the day" and other times it seizes you-as in Carpediem's case.
Aug-21-12  Zatrikion: 30.Qxg6+ 1-0


or 30..Kf8
31.Rxh7 Rxh7
32.Qxh7 and mate cannot be avoided.

Can somebody explain me why black still play with a R down?

Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: Black chose to be mated quickly...or he would have been mated slower.
Aug-21-12  SimonWebbsTiger:

click for larger view

(Kindermann - Forintos, West Berlin 1987)

White to play and win. A nice finish, although the mate wasn't played (it's in the notes). The mate is similar to today's puzzle.

Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Mindful of the approach (piece extra) even spotted rook at h1 until shifted in straight demolition g6+ back got in idea rook can bury itself in h8 for mate rough edge to Madiba game rookb2 oh b1 king up any difficult proposition in iridescent reign across to a1 tame sac from Carpediem plunking in loot pawn not worth the effort in capturing sparkling finish by JR line grows out h6 in g6 escry breaks down the back door at if in g6 barrels right d4 mates h8 ring middle bishop in clot hard to see supporting black defences i toil in staple thoroughfare for Tuesday raiding scotch g6 and, slam in corridor h8 eminate.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <gofer: Why are some people suggesting 31 Qxf7? This seems a rather silly way to give up one's queen!>

It may seem silly to you, but it actually makes perfect sense in a real-man sort of way. The queen sac allows white to slap his second rook onto the seventh rank with tempo. And that gives us the deadly combination of two rooks on the seventh plus a unrestricted bishop against a king without a shred of pawn cover. It's the chess equivalent of using a chainsaw to chop logs without wearing a shirt.

31. Qxf7+! also forces black's reply, which every chess player knows is a valuable (and exceptionally macho) thing to be able to do.

The critical position comes after 31. Qxf7+ Kxf7 32. Rxh7+

click for larger view

It doesn't take long to see that black is going to have to give up his queen to prevent mate. Fritzie confirms, with evals in the +16s (or forced mate) for each of the four possible black king retreats.

Okay, so it turns out that 31. Rxh7 mates more quickly. But it's a non-forcing move, a GOOT, it's a vegetarian move, low fat, unleaded, sugar-free. It's a celery and quorn quiche to 31. Qxf7+ bloody steak.

The one thing against 31. Qxf7+ is that the variations are longer and black has more choices. That is what ultimately put me off. I liked the line, I was sure it was winning, but I didn't have 100% confidence that black couldn't wriggle. And that's why I looked again at the beige 31. Rxh7.

Or, put it another way, if 31. Rxh7 wasn't available we would have been much happier if we saw the potential of 31. Qxf7+ and didn't just dismiss it as silly.

Time to get back under <my> rock! ;-)

Aug-21-12  mworld: <Now the only mystery left is what the "M" stands for>

depends who you are really

Premium Chessgames Member
  gawain: I saw 30 Qxg6+ hxg6 31 Rh8# right away. If Black plays 30...Kf8 he lasts a little longer--but not much.
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: The finish aside, not sure how much value this puzzle has, really-even without the forcing idea to simplify matters, White's up a rook going in and can win as he pleases.
Aug-21-12  ajile: I'll give you a million dollars if you let me spend a night with your fish.
Aug-21-12  Nullifidian: 30. ♕xg6+

30... ♙hxg6 31. ♖h8#
30... ♖g7 31. ♕xg7#

30... ♔f8 31. ♖xh7 ♖xh7 32. ♕xh7 (Δ 33. ♕g7+) ♙e5 33. ♗e3 (Δ 34. ♗h6+) ♕c7 (to free an escape square for the king) 34. ♗h6+ ♔e8 35. ♖xc7 and mate next move.

Aug-21-12  alphee: Once again a queen sac ... and Black is done sooner or latter. Well, it is tuesday ...
Aug-21-12  dumbgai: This position is such comical overkill though. White wins with pretty much any move that doesn't hang a piece. I prefer puzzles where there is only one winning move.
Aug-21-12  SimonWebbsTiger: Kindermann-Forintos (see below)

1. f5 gxf5 2. Nxe6 fxe6 3. Bxf5

Kindermann notes the following mate in his annotations: 3...exf5 4. Bg5 Kf8 5. Bh6 Kg8 6. Qg4 fxg4 7. Rf8

Aug-21-12  gofer: <Once>: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Given that this site has pages dedicated to one mating variation "over" another, just how inferior is <Qf7+> versus <Rxh7>? I would imagine that you have compared the two variations using Fritz and have already found Qf7+ to be wanting, but you haven't come forth with his evidence?

Do you have something you want to share with the group?

Is your juicy steak from the flank of a well-fed rat?

Aug-21-12  Old King Cole: Deflected, I thought Qh7ch was the sac. But it wasn't. Fooled in the first few nanoseconds.
Aug-21-12  frogbert: not sure if i understand why this game is in the db in the first place: white has no fide rating and black plays like a 1500-player or worse.

is white a kibitzer possibly?

Aug-21-12  PinnedPiece: Well, continuing with my attempt to NOT LOOK at the position, and simply play through the game's moves without seeing what's played next, but trying to guess the best, or at least the played move, I did easily find the queen "sacrifice" at move 30.

This for me is also very educational, to see what leads into a position I should be able to "see". This one was particularly easy.


Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <gofer> 31. Qxf7+ wins. It is slower than 31. Rxh7, but it's a win nevertheless.

That makes it not as good as 31. Rxh7, but certainly not "silly".

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