| Nov-10-11 | | GlennOliver: I'm surprised that Nigel didn't fight on a while longer. With best play, Black is very much winning, but best play doesn't always happen in a competitive environment, so it would have been worth looking further for the swindle. |
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| Nov-10-11 | | luzhin: I think this score could be incomplete. Black is certainly not 'very much winning' in the position after move 25. |
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Nov-12-11
 | | ray keene: nigel has discovered flank openings as in his lovely win v sveshnikov-maybe they suit his more mature style better than the old brutal ways of 1e4.never trusted 1e4 much myself. |
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Nov-12-11
 | | HeMateMe: After Night moves anywhere on 26., black seems to gobble up material faster than white can. |
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| Nov-13-11 | | bezzazz: Why did White resign on move 25? Please give some possible winning variations for Black! |
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| Nov-13-11 | | bronkenstein: <bezzazz: Why did White resign on move 25? Please give some possible winning variations for Black!> As luzhin already suggested , the score is most likely incomplete(due to regularly horible `live` broadcasts of the tournament ). There is no winning lines , black is only slightly better in the final position. |
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| Nov-13-11 | | GlennOliver: luzhin,
Different chess engines also say that "Black is very much winning". The main problems for White are a broken pawn structure with severe spatial disadvantages, including a 7th-rank rook. White can still make a fight of it, but a 2700+ GM such as Laznicka would only rarely let such an advantage slip. |
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| Nov-13-11 | | bronkenstein: Maybe if this was some Tchigorin-Steinitz game , but I would go with Occam`s razor here - just another one of many incomplete games from last ETCC. |
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| Nov-19-11 | | luzhin: GlennOliver, please therefore give variations demonstrating that "Black is very much winning". |
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| Nov-20-11 | | rilkefan: FWIW, I ran stockfish on my laptop this afternoon for probably 50 Gnodes and couldn't prove a lasting advantage for black in several lines - but then the evaluation depends critically (I think) on whether black can win a particular R+p+2p vs R+2p ending (or similar forces plus R) with his king cut off, and there I can't really comment. |
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| Nov-26-11 | | GlennOliver: luzhin,
Sorry for the very late reply.
The variations run to too many moves to be worthwhile filling up ChessGames with them. I'm surprised that anyone has found no "lasting advantage for black" - the engines I've used have all ended in Black wins. |
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| Nov-28-11 | | luzhin: GlennOliver, no need to show all variations: just give the main line showing best play for both sides, if you wouldn't mind. |
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| Nov-30-11 | | GlennOliver: luzhin,
Will do.
As soon as I am home and have access to a chess engine this weekend I'll post the main line as best I see it. No doubt you are then going to tell me you are sitting in a hollowed-out volcano and running a Fujitsu Riken dedicated solely to chess, and my line is wrong at the 37th move. |
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| Dec-02-11 | | GlennOliver: Here's the latest play through, and once again Black's relatively small initial advantage develops incrementally. 25. Re3 h6 26. Ne6 Nxg4 27. Rf3 Re8 28. Nc5 b6 29. Nd3 Rd2 30. Kg3 Re4 31. Rxa7 Nf6 32. Ra8+ Kh7 33. h3 Rxd4 34. Ra3 Ne4+ 35. Kh2 Nd6 36. Rb3 Re4 37. b5 d4 38. Kg3 Kg6 39. Nf4+ Kg5 40. h4+ Kf6 41. Kg2 Ke5 42. Nd3+ Kd5 43. Nb4+ Kc4 44. Na6 h5 45. Rb4+ Kd5 46. Rf8 Rxh4 47. Nc7+ Ke5 48. Na6 Nf5 49. Re8+ Kd6 50. Kg1 Rd1+ 51. Kg2 Rg4+ 52. Kh2 Nh4 53. Rxd4+ Rdxd4 54. Rd8+ Ke5 55. Rxd4 Kxd4 56. Nb4 Nf3+ 57. Kh3 g5 58. Nc2+ Ke4 59. Nd4 Nxd4 60. f4 Kxf4 61. b4 Rg3+ 62. Kh2 Nf3+ 63. Kh1 Rg1# |
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| Dec-13-11 | | GlennOliver: luzhin,
Have you (and the white cat you stroke with a black leather glove) come to any conclusion about that main line? It still seems to me that Black does have a winning position at the point where Nigel resigned. |
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| Dec-17-11 | | luzhin: GlennOliver, my first conclusion is that your 'main line' is fairly random. Just for a start, 28.Nf4 attacking Black's d-pawn seems more natural than 28.Nc5. Second, if you study Short's games you will find that he is a very 'late' resigner, sometimes even playing on till checkmate, so I am more than ever convinced that this is not the full score. Third, if you use a computer you will know that the sign minus over plus denotes a 'winning position for Black'. I fed the position after Black's 25th move into two computer programmes, and both indicate 'small advantage to Black': so, not a 'winning position'. |
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| Dec-19-11 | | GlennOliver: It'll take more than cutting off your earlobes, Blofeld, to turn you into a Count. : ) To answer your points -
1. 28.Nf4 seems to me to yield some initiative back to White e.g. 25. Re3 h6 26. Ne6 Nxg4 27. Rf3 Re8 28. Nf4 Rd2 29. Rxa7 Rxd4 30. Nd3 Re7 31. b5 Nf6 32. b6 Nh5 33. Ra8+ Kh7 34. Ra3 Re6 35. Rb3 Kg8 36. h3 Rc6 37. Rf5 Nf6 38. Re5 Kf8 and a rather unclear position
2. I don't think it likely that "this is not the full score", if you mean not the full set of moves in that game. But, if you think that, perhaps you could email the organisers to check, and then let Chessgames know if you find anything missing? 3. With respect, this is splitting hairs.
Black's position at move 25 consistently leads to a Black win with the best play I can find. You are welcome to describe it differently, if you prefer, but I think that that fact may reasonably be described as a winning position for Black. |
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Dec-19-11
 | | Nigel Short: I resigned in a lost position with rook against rook and h-pawn. All these discussions about my premature resignation are simply wrong. |
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| Dec-19-11 | | Nemesistic: <GM Short> You must understand that the user's analyzing this game do so for fun.. They do not expect the loser of this game to pop up and tell them their discussions about possible premature resignations are "simply wrong".. They're only opinions. |
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| Dec-19-11 | | Robed.Bishop: <Nemesistic> Unless I missed the point of <Nigel Short's> comment, the game score above is incomplete and he didn't resign at move 25. He resigned later in a R V R + P ending. That would indeed make the comments about premature resignations wrong. |
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| Dec-19-11 | | Nemesistic: <RB> Ahhh ..I didn't take that into consideration,so i stand corrected with apologies to GM Short |
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| Dec-19-11 | | luzhin: So those of us who believed that this was not the full score of the game and that Short could not have resigned in the position after move 25 were right. As he implies, he is not given to premature resignation. |
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Dec-20-11
| | Nigel Short: Especially not in a team competition. |
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| Dec-20-11 | | GlennOliver: "Nigel Short: I resigned in a lost position with rook against rook and h-pawn. All these discussions about my premature resignation are simply wrong." Nigel,
Thank you very much for the clarification.
It would be helpful if someone could post the full and correct set of moves for that game, so we could at least argue wrongly about the actual game that was played. Every pgn version I have downloaded from every site I can find, including the pgn from the ETCC site itself, ends after 25. Re3 h6 0-1 |
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Dec-20-11
 | | Penguincw: Not too much of a rating difference (assuming it's correct). |
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Kibitzing
sac: 22...Qc7