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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Oct-11-12 | | kevin86: Where did black get the stupid idea of moving the QUEEN'S knight to f6? It is a fatal misteak. |
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Oct-11-12
 | | doubledrooks: I went for 7. Nxf7 Kxf7 8. Ne5+ and now:
a. 8...Ke8 9. Qd3 e6 10. Qg6+ Ke7 11. Nf7 Qa5+ 12. Bd2 Qd5 13. Nxa8 b. 8...Ke6 9. Bc4+ Nd5 10. Qg4+
b.1 10...Ke6 11. Nf7+ 
b.2 10...Kf6 11. Qg6#
I went with 9. Qd3 instead of 9. Bd3 in order to leave the Bf1 defending g2. |
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Oct-11-12
 | | Once: It's a shame that the game didn't continue for a few more moves. Then we might get the odd situation where white had played a knight to f7 three times in the same game. |
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| Oct-11-12 | | Dr. J: <Harvestman: <Dr. J> ... I don't see in your lines why white has to rush to play Nxh8. Maybe 12.0-0 is fine> Dubious. Black has 12...Rh7 remaining with B+N for R+P. To all the other commentators who are concluding <"White wins the exchange and a pawn">, please note: <White wins the exchange, but HE CAN'T KEEP IT>. I reiterate: <11...Kc7(!) 12 Bf4+ Kb6 13 Nxh8 Qxg2 14 Rf1 (14 Ke2?? Bg4+; 14 Kd2?? Qxf2+) Bh3 recovering the exchangeOr: 12 Nxh8 Qxg2 13 Kd2 Qxf2+ 14 Kc3 Nd5+ 15 Kb3 Be6 with great counterplay.> So where is the win?? |
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| Oct-11-12 | | JohnAnthony: I went with 9. Qd3 for the continuation. Couldn't conceive how the Q on g6 wouldn't be better than the B.... |
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| Oct-11-12 | | BOSTER: <infohunter> <looks as through a new opening trap saw the light of day with this game>. It is well-known that to chase Ng5 in Caro-Kann playing h6 better after development the black king side. The same mistake made Kasparov (black) vs Deep Blue in the pos. on diagram. 
click for larger view The truth is,that in this game white sacr. the knight playing Nxe6! for only one pawn. This is the position al sacr. But in the pos.<POTD> white playing 7.Nxf7 winning the material. |
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Oct-11-12
| | Once: <Dr. J> Fritz deviates from your line at move 13: 11. ... Kc7 12. Bf4+ Kb6 13. O-O
click for larger viewThe silicon monster agrees that 13. Nxh8 doesn't promise much advantage because black has 13...Qxg2. But he's pinging back evals of +3 if white castles, either on move 12 or 13. Then Qxg2 isn't available and white can safely grab the Rh8. The question then is whether white can extricate his knight. I can't see a way for black to stop him playing either Nxh8-Nf7-Ne5 or Nxh8-Bd3-Ng6. |
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| Oct-11-12 | | jancotianno: Like many other people here i picked 9. Qd3 and found a win so decided to stick with that. |
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| Oct-11-12 | | M.Hassan: "Medium" White to play 7.?
Each side one pawn down. Equal
7.Nxf7 Kxf7
8.Ne5+ Ke8
9.Qd3 threatening mate on g6
9.........Qa5+ basically opening room for King escape 10.Bd2 Qb6 attacking b2 pawn
11.Qg6+ Kd8
12.Nf7+ Kd7
13.0-0-0 to protect the b2 pawn and stop any attempt of black to attack
13..........Rh7
14.Ne5+ Kd6
15.Bf4 Kd5
16.Bc4+ Kd6
17.Bxg8 Just recovered the lost Knight.
17..........Rh8
18.Nf7++ Kd7
19.Nxh8
White is now up by a Rook for a pawn plus he has done severe damages to the Black king's position. Not sure if this is the right solution
Time to check
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I like my line as well |
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| Oct-11-12 | | Patriot: This looks tough to find anything concrete. For a puzzle, the likely candidate is 7.Nxf7 forking rook and queen. But this stuff doesn't always work OTB. 7...Kxf7 (what else?)
Now either 8.Ne5+ or 8.Bc4+. 8.Bc4+ Ke8 9.Ne5 e6 and then? 8.Ne5+ Ke8 9.Ng6 Rh7 10.Be3 doesn't look forcing enough and I can't be sure white is getting enough compensation. Perhaps 8.Ne5+ Ke8 9.Qd3--now that looks strong! I don't see an adequate defense to this. |
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| Oct-11-12 | | Patriot: This one gave me problems. There's no way I would've seen this in a tournament game. |
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| Oct-11-12 | | morfishine: Hi <David2009>! I just couldn't tell which was better: <9.Qd3> or <9.Bd3> Fortunately, <Once> has confirmed either are good to win and actually per FRITZ, 9.Qd3 is slightly better |
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| Oct-11-12 | | James D Flynn: All pieces and pawns are still on the board except one pawn on each side. Neither side has completed its development but White has 2Ns in positions threatening the f7 square. The N on g5 is attacked Whites next move appears inevitable: 7.Nxf7.
7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.Ne5+ Ke8 9.Bd3 and the Black K needs an escape square, candidates Q moves c7, b6,a5,d5 or a pawn move e6.
9……Qc7 10. Bf4( and the Q must move again) Qb6 12.Nc4 (Q and the Q is lost e.g Qb5 or a6 Nd6+ or Qb4+ c3 and wherever it move it can be taken next move or after Nd6) .
9……Qb6 10.Bg6+ Kd8 11.Nf7+ Kc7 12.Bf4+ e5 13.Nxe5 Kd7 14.Qxb2 Nc4+ wins the Q or 14,Qa5+ c3 and Nc4 next wins the Q.
9……Qa5+ 10.Bd2 Qc7 11.Bf4 and we have the same position as after 9….Qc7 with an extra move on each side.
9……Qd5 10.O-O and the Black Q will be chased by 4 to squares where it is vulnerable to attack and whit can in any case win the R on a8 via Bg6+ Kd8 and Nf7+.. 9…..e6 10.Bd3+ Ke7 11.Bf4 |
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| Oct-11-12 | | TheBish: V Kolesnikov vs P Piatnitsky, 1994 White to play (7.?) "Medium"
White gets a winning attack (winning material) with 7. Nxf7! Kxf7 (forced, since 7...Qa5+ 8. Bd2 and the rook is lost) 8. Ne5+ and now: (A) 8...Ke8 9. Qd3 e6 (or 9...Qb6 10. Qg6+ Kd8 11. Nf7+, winning the rook) 10. Qg6+ Ke7 11. Nf7 and White wins the rook, e.g. 11...Qe8 12. Nxh8 and the queen is defended. (B) 8...Ke6 9. Bc4+ Nd5
Not 9...Kf5 10. Qf3#, or 9...Kd6 10. Nf7+, winning the queen. 10. Qg4+ Kd6 (or 10...Kf6 11. Qg6#) 11. Nf7+ Kc7 12. Qg3+!, saving White's queen before capturing Black's queen next move. So, (A) is the best option, but White should have an easy win with the Exchange and attack against Black's uncastled king. |
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| Oct-11-12 | | Abdel Irada: <Once>: I'm curious to know what Fritz says about my main line. You'll note that like several others here, I don't see a clear advantage from snatching the rook immediately, but in lieu of castling, I prefer 14. ♕d3!? (or 13. ♕d3 if Black moves the queen directly to d5 without checking on a5 first), which defends the bishop on g6, builds a battery on the b1-h7 diagonal, prepares castling queenside, and creates a threat of ♕b3† soon followed by mate. |
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| Oct-11-12 | | Dr. J: <Once: <Dr. J> Fritz deviates from your line at move 13: 11. ... Kc7 12. Bf4+ Kb6 13. O-O
The silicon monster agrees that 13. Nxh8 doesn't promise much advantage because black has 13...Qxg2. But he's pinging back evals of +3 if white castles, either on move 12 or 13. Then Qxg2 isn't available and white can safely grab the Rh8.> He doesn't get the chance. Black has ...Rh7 maintaining a slight material advantage: B+N for R+P. What then? |
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| Oct-11-12 | | Patriot: <Abdel Irada> Here's what Houdini says: New game - Houdini 1.5a x64, Blitz:4'+2" Microsoft
click for larger viewAnalysis by Houdini 1.5a x64:
1. (3.61): 8.Qd3 a6 9.0-0 e5 10.dxe5 Qxd3 11.cxd3 Nd5 12.Be3+ Bc5 13.Bxc5+ Kxc5 14.Nxh8 Nge7 15.Be4 Be6 16.Ng6 Nxg6 17.Bxg6 Nf4 18.Be4 Ne2+ 19.Kh1 Rf8 20.Rae1 Nd4 21.a3 Kb6 22.f4 Kc7 23.Kg1 a5 2. (3.55): 8.0-0 e5 9.dxe5 Qxd1 10.Be3+ Bc5 11.Bxc5+ Kxc5 12.Rfxd1 Nd5 13.Nxh8 Nge7 14.Be4 Bg4 15.f3 Bxf3 16.gxf3 Rxh8 17.Rd3 Rf8 18.Rad1 b5 19.Kf2 g5 20.Rd4 Nf5 21.Bxf5 Rxf5 3. (3.20): 8.Qd2 a5 9.0-0 Rh7 10.Ne5 Ka7 11.c4 Qd8 12.Qd3 c5 13.Bxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 Nf6 15.Qd3 Qxd4 16.Qxd4 cxd4 17.Rad1 g5 18.Bg3 Bg7 19.Rxd4 Nh5 20.Re1 Be6 21.f3 Nxg3 22.hxg3 h5 23.Kf2 4. (2.89): 8.a4 a5 9.0-0 Bf5 10.Nxh8 e6 11.Bxf5 Qxf5 12.Be5 Nd7 13.g4 Qh7 14.Nf7 Ngf6 15.f3 g5 16.Nd6 Nd5 17.c4 Nb4 18.Qb3 Ka7 19.Rae1 Nxe5 20.dxe5 Qd3 21.Re3 Qd4 22.Rd1 Qb6 5. (2.73): 8.c4 Qxc4 9.Nxh8 e5 10.Bd3 Bb4+ 11.Kf1 Qe6 12.Bxe5 Ne7 13.a3 Bd6 14.Nf7 Bxe5 15.Nxe5 Kc7 16.Qf3 Qb3 17.Re1 Be6 18.Qg3 Nh5 19.Qh4 Nf6 20.Qf4 Ned5 21.Qg3 6. (2.60): 8.f3 Qe6+ 9.Be5 Nd7 10.Qd3 Ngf6 11.Qe3 Qc4 12.Nxh8 Nd5 13.Qb3+ Qxb3 14.axb3 Nxe5 15.dxe5 e6 16.Be4 Kc7 17.Bxd5 exd5 18.Ng6 Bc5 19.g4 Be6 20.Kd2 Bf7 21.Nf4 Re8 22.Nd3 At 20-ply, Houdini agrees with you although there is little difference between 14.O-O and 14.Qd3. It saw no difference between 9...Qa5+ 10.Bd2 Qd5 and the direct 9...Qd5. I thought 9...Qa5+ had potential to be worse since white develops 10.Bd2 but that could actually go either way. Usually this would be helping the opponent develop with tempo, so what's the purpose of the check first? By the way, I think you did a very good job analyzing this! |
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| Oct-11-12 | | Abdel Irada: Thank you, <Patriot>. As to the intermezzo 9. ...♕a5†, I think it makes little difference. In the main line, in fact, it simply transposes, because the queen will go to d5 and the bishop will check on f4 in any case. However, the move does slightly complicate, which Black might find pragmatically useful if White should deviate disadvantageously, and thematically it can sometimes be useful to remove a defender from the white d- and b-pawns — although this usually becomes a factor only if the queen retreats to b6, which would be a mistake in this case because that square is needed for the king. |
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| Oct-12-12 | | Patriot: <Abdel Irada> Interesting perspective--thanks! I never thought of it that way. There's no doubt that black needs to complicate the position as much as possible to give white the chance to err. And if he turned out to be worse (as I thought), well...he was lost anyway! |
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| Oct-12-12 | | Infohunter: <Gypsy: No lesser players than Smyslov and Tal have tried the <5...Ndf6>; both of them were blown off the chess-board during the experiment, however.> Well, if those World Champions couldn't make a go of it, then it's no surprise that this Piatnitsky couldn't do it either. |
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Oct-12-12
 | | FSR: This is poor Piatnitsky's only game in the database. |
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| Oct-12-12 | | Infohunter: <FSR> Yes, pity to have one's only claim to fame at <cg> be a quick loss like this. |
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Oct-12-12
| | Once: <Dr. J> Fritz says... 13...Rh7 14. Ne5
click for larger viewNow if 14...Rh8 (to save the rook), white has 15. c4
click for larger viewThe queen doesn't have a safe retreat square and white is also threatening a mating attack starting with c5+. Some sample lines: 15...Qd8 16. Nf7 wins the h8 rook
15...Qe6 16. Nd7+ Nxd7 17. Qb3+ is mate in 7
15...Qa5 16. c5+ Kc7 17. Nc4+ wins the white queen |
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| Oct-12-12 | | Dr. J: <Once> All good points, but 1) 14...Rh8 isn't forced; and 2) this is still an awful lot of work to win a won position. Black should not have resigned. |
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Oct-13-12
| | Once: Maybe. It's a very personal decision when to resign. Some players fight on to the bitter end. Others cut their losses early. In this game, the win isn't clearcut but few players would want to play on as black. Even if he could survive without losing material (which he can't) his king is displaced and his pieces undeveloped. |
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Kibitzing
sac: 7.Nxf7