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| Aug-23-13 | | notyetagm: <chess123456789: was the exchange sac by Korobov really necessary?> Good questions. Annotations should be out soon.
:-) |
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| Aug-23-13 | | chess123456789: granted that black's position is pretty nasty on move 32...but i think Tigran Petrosian could have done a lot better job holding this position. Maybe on move 32...black is better suited to play a "waiting move".... |
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| Aug-23-13 | | ColdSong: As far as I've got ideas about how not to weaken a position,Korobov's whole approach seems rather strange to me in this one.But well,he's grandmaster and I'm not. |
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| Aug-23-13 | | notyetagm: Kramnik vs A Korobov, 2013 Game Collection: Vladimir, the Conqueror Indeed. |
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Aug-23-13
 | | hoodrobin: Kramnik is at the top as usual. Sometimes he's slow but he never is banal. |
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| Aug-23-13 | | csmath: The opening is to dose off but this is in character for Kramnik so nothing unusual. 13. a5
is a new move in the position. The response is natural 13. ...Bd7?! [here black should seek improvement]
but Kramnik immediately demonstrates the weakness of black castling and black is in need to defend very carefuly which Korobov does in moves 15 to 20. 21. bxa6?
is the first positional error. [21. ...b6 is not attractive move
but it does not give black passers. It will amount to a weakness on the seventh rank later though it is hard to see any danger now] 23. ...h5?!
[this is somewhat bizzare move since weakening of king position is not forced. It is difficult to find good moves and this is probably the reason for this move] 24. Qf3? [24. Qe2! is stronger increasing the pressure on weakness e6 and protecting bishop on e2 so that rook on d1 can be transferred to b or a file.] 29. Rb7?!
[another error that gives black excellent chances to save the game, 29. Qa3?! Rb1, 30. Kf1 looks risky:
30. ... Bg6 (expecting Rb7), 31. Rb7 Kh7, 32. Rxb1 Bxb1, 33. Ba5 Qbb8 and the passer is temporarily stopped. White is still better but he has to be careful, for example: 34. Bxd5? exd5, 35. c7 Qb5+ and Bf5 likely draw. However white could try
29. Rd7 Qb6, 30. Bxd5 exd5, 31. c7 Rc8, 32. Qg3  ]
32. ...g6? [decisive error, opens tactics involving pin of the bishop, weakens all the pawns on 6th rank. 32. ...Ne7 was the right move] 33. ...Rxc6? [difficult decision to make but still a bad move. Black was probably hoping for some sort of fortress?] Black is now technically lost and it is hard to blunder that away. Kramnik plays good enough to bring it home. 38. ...gxh4?
makes his job easier opening more entry routes toward black king. 38. Ra8?! [38. Qb4 wins instantenuosly]
===
I wonder about this whole opening. Unprepared? Should not be since Korobov does play Soultanbeiff with white pieces so he should know how to play it with black pieces as well.
Nevertheless he was clearly outplayed in the opening and after reaching equal position by the grace of his opponent he makes further positional errors (32. ...g6?) and eventually loses. Whay play passive openings against Kramnik? |
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| Aug-23-13 | | csmath: Excellent opening by Kramnik and immaculate chess ... for the first 23 moves.:-) |
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Aug-23-13
 | | chancho: Kramnik mentioned in the post game interview that after he played 38.Ra7 he noticed he had 38.Qb4 winning. |
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| Aug-23-13 | | csmath: Kramnik spoke so fast for me that I missed half of what he said. Makes sense, this is probably in time trouble when all sorts of things escape from rational consideration. He played a good game otherwise and did not give Korobov many chances. The ones he gave Korobov missed so the win is earned "properly" (as opposed to outright blunders by opponent). |
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Aug-23-13
 | | AgentRgent: Is this really a Slav? Seems more like a Semi-Slav with the B on c8... |
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| Aug-23-13 | | csmath: This is just a QG Slav-Soultanbeiff, only the beginning black pawn structure is similar to Semi-Slav Botvinnik. But the game plan for both sides is much more different and this is much more passive opening (for black) than Botvinnik with zippo countergame as opposed to Botvinnik. White has no intention of activity in center but he seeks to stop any attempt of black for countergame on the queenside. Kramnik's plan with a4-a5-a6 has not been played before in this opening while it looks very natural. So this is now line in variation that has to be examined (for those who play this). |
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| Aug-24-13 | | Hesam7: <csmath: 29. Qa3?! Rb1, 30. Kf1 looks risky:
30. ... Bg6 (expecting Rb7), 31. Rb7 Kh7, 32. Rxb1 Bxb1, 33. Ba5 Qbb8 and the passer is temporarily stopped. White is still better but he has to be careful, for example: 34. Bxd5? exd5, 35. c7 Qb5+ and Bf5 likely draw.> After <29 Qa3! Rb1 30 Kf1 Bg6 31 Rb7 Kh7> White should cover the d1-square with <32 Be2!> making c7 an actual threat: 
click for larger viewWhat should Black play? I tried 32...h4 but after 33 c7! Nc7 34 Rb1 Bb1 35 Ba5 
click for larger viewthe Knight is lost: 35...Qb8 36 Qd6, 35...Qd7 36 Qc1, 35...Qc8 36 Qc1, and 35...Qa8 36 Qb4. Note that with the Bishop on c4 Black has 35...Qd1 which is the point of 32 Be2!. My engine suggested <32...Nb6> but after <33 Qe3> 33 c7?? Qd2 and Black mates! <33...Qd6> 33...Nd5 34 Qa7  <34 c7 Qh2 35 Qh3 Qh3 36 gh3 Bf5 37 Bf3 Bh3 38 Ke2 Rc1 39 Rb6 Rc7 40 Bh5> 
click for larger viewit is over. |
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| Aug-24-13 | | Hesam7: <csmath: 13. ...Bd7?! [here black should seek improvement]> You are right, first I thought there was something wrong with 13...a6 but it actually holds pretty well since White can't exploit the b6-square: 14 Na4 Nc6! 15 Bd5 ed5 (15...Qd5? 16 Nb6) 16 Nb6 Rb8! 17 Bf4 Bd6 
click for larger viewAnd here neither 18 Nd5 nor 18 Ne5 give White anything. |
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| Aug-24-13 | | Nerwal: <Is this really a Slav? Seems more like a Semi-Slav with the B on c8...> It's a Queen Gambit Accepted with the extra move a4 for white, since black spent two moves on c6 and c5. But I guess black tries to get it back by avoiding a6 altogether (1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. ♘f3 ♘f6 4. e3 e6 5. ♗xc4 c5 6. 0-0 a6 7. a4 ♘c6 8. ♕e2 cxd4 9. ♖d1 ♗e7 10. exd4 0-0 11. ♘c3 would be the normal QGA continuation). And of course it's not entirely clear how good is a4 in an IQP position : it prevents the plan with a6 and b5 but weakens b4... |
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| Aug-24-13 | | csmath: <It's a Queen Gambit Accepted with the extra move a4 for white, since black spent two moves on c6 and c5> It is a Queen Gambit Slav Soultanbeiff. That is a designation and it is pretty old opening. It could optically be similar to this or that but it has its name. |
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| Aug-24-13 | | csmath: <@Hesam7:
After <29 Qa3! Rb1 30 Kf1 Bg6 31 Rb7 Kh7> White should cover the d1-square with <32 Be2!> making c7 an actual threat>
Not so easy.
My analysis is more accurate than the one on chessbase. They do have a good comment on chessbase that 28. Qa3 is not a human move. I do not think it is even a good move compared to 28. Rd7. <My engine suggested <32...Nb6> but after <33 Qe3> 33 c7?? Qd2 and Black mates! <33...Qd6> 33...Nd5 34 Qa7 <34 c7 Qh2 35 Qh3 Qh3 36 gh3 Bf5 37 Bf3 Bh3 38 Ke2 Rc1 39 Rb6 Rc7 40 Bh5>> Try 33. ...Nd5 and it is not over.
I am pretty much sure that obvious (and human move) 28.Rd7 should lead to a win. About 28.Qa3 I am not so sure. |
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| Aug-24-13 | | csmath: Now going over this again I can only say that Kramnik played powerful opening setting up difficult theoretical question for black with plan a5-a6. I cannot answer that question even in analyses after the game but I did not try too hard since I have no interest in this opening anyway. However Korobov could not do that OTB either. The result was very difficult position that Korobov made even worse by numerous positional errors. Kramnik then missed powerful move 24. Qe2 and gave room to black to consolidate. Korobov could not do that and after that he was not given second chence. The play by both in time trouble was somewhat spotty but Kramnik has not lost the control of the game. This is one of better games in World Cup by the sheer power of play by white. Although with errors and without anything spectacular. |
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| Aug-24-13 | | Hesam7: <csmath: <@Hesam7:
After <29 Qa3! Rb1 30 Kf1 Bg6 31 Rb7 Kh7> White should cover the d1-square with <32 Be2!> making c7 an actual threat> Not so easy.
My analysis is more accurate than the one on chessbase. They do have a good comment on chessbase that 28. Qa3 is not a human move. I do not think it is even a good move compared to 28. Rd7. <My engine suggested <32...Nb6> but after <33 Qe3> 33 c7?? Qd2 and Black mates! <33...Qd6> 33...Nd5 34 Qa7 <34 c7 Qh2 35 Qh3 Qh3 36 gh3 Bf5 37 Bf3 Bh3 38 Ke2 Rc1 39 Rb6 Rc7 40 Bh5>> Try 33. ...Nd5 and it is not over.>
I am not relying on chessbase, after 29 Qa3! Rb1 30 Kf1 Bg6 31 Rb7 Kh7 32 Be2! Nb6 33 Qe3 Nd5 34 Qa7 
click for larger viewBlack has no way of defending g7, my engine suggests one last trick for Black 34...Nb6 35 Rg7 Kh6 36 Rg6! (36 Rb7?? Qd2 Black mates) 36...Kg6 37 Qa3 f5 38 Qa2 Re1 (38...Rc1 39 Qe6 Qf6 40 Qg8 Kh6 41 c7 also loses) 39 Ke1 Qd6 (defending e6) 40 Bf3 
click for larger viewAnd if 40...Nd5 then 41 Bd5 ed5 42 Qa6 is a won Queen ending for White. <csmath: I am pretty much sure that obvious (and human move) 28.Rd7 should lead to a win. About 28.Qa3 I am not so sure.> I think both moves are objectively equal because they both win. However from a practical point of view their difference could not be greater. |
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| Aug-24-13 | | csmath: <@Hesam7:
Black has no way of defending g7,>
He won't be defending it.
<38...Rc1 39 Qe6 Qf6 40 Qg8 Kh6 41 c7 also loses> That is not given. This is fairly complicated, and without engaging bishops the pawn will not promote.
As a matter of fact.
41. ... h4
42. Qd8 Qc3
and that pawn looks close to dead to me.
The promotion square is protected by three pieces of black, and I do not see any straightforward win. |
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| Aug-24-13 | | csmath: Admitedly this is all engine "inhuman" analysis and players would surely make more errors on the way. This is extremely hard to play. |
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| Aug-24-13 | | Hesam7: <csmath: <@Hesam7: Black has no way of defending g7,> He won't be defending it.
<38...Rc1 39 Qe6 Qf6 40 Qg8 Kh6 41 c7 also loses> That is not given. This is fairly complicated, and without engaging bishops the pawn will not promote. As a matter of fact. 41. ... h4
42. Qd8 Qc3
and that pawn looks close to dead to me.
The promotion square is protected by three pieces of black, and I do not see any straightforward win.> The win is straightforward but it takes a while and White does not try to Queen or keep the c-pawn. In my original analysis I looked at 41...Qc3 and the winning plan was to give the c-pawn for Black's two remaining pawns, then after a series of checks White trades Queens and the rest is easy. Here you can do it as well: 29 Qa3 Rb1 30 Kf1 Bg6 31 Rb7 Kh7 32 Be2 Nb6 33 Qe3 Nd5 34 Qa7 Nb6 35 Rg7 Kh6 36 Rg6 Kg6 37 Qa3 f5 38 Qa2 Rc1 39 Qe6 Qf6 40 Qg8 Kh6 41 c7 h4 42 Qd8 Qc3 43 Qh4 Kg7 44 Qe7 Kg8 45 Qg5 Kh8 46 Qh6 Kg8 47 Qe6 Kg7 48 Bb5 Qc7 49 Qf5 
click for larger viewEngine evaluations are very misleading here, White is winning. |
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| Aug-25-13 | | Ulhumbrus: 16...f6 disturbs the king side pawns without necessity and makes the e6 pawn backward. White need hardly worry about his isolated d pawn after Black has contracted a still weaker backward e6 pawn. Alternatives include 16...Rc8 getting the queen's rook out, 16...a6 preventing a6 and 16...Bc6 helping to connect the rooks |
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| Aug-25-13 | | csmath: <Here you can do it as well: 29 Qa3 Rb1 30 Kf1 Bg6 31 Rb7 Kh7 32 Be2 Nb6 33 Qe3 Nd5 34 Qa7 Nb6 35 Rg7 Kh6 36 Rg6 Kg6 37 Qa3 f5 38 Qa2 Rc1 39 Qe6 Qf6 40 Qg8 Kh6 41 c7 h4 42 Qd8 Qc3 43 Qh4 Kg7 44 Qe7 Kg8 45 Qg5 Kh8 46 Qh6 Kg8 47 Qe6 Kg7 48 Bb5 Qc7 49 Qf5
Engine evaluations are very misleading here, White is winning .> I am afraid I will pass checking that variation.
I can only say that I have never seen ending like that in all my practice or study. I don't think any GM has ever play anything like this thus I am sure there is no theory to back up your claim. I might even agree *on a gutt feeling* though but it is surely not a straightforward win whatever that means to you.
:-) |
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| Aug-25-13 | | csmath: On that note I have to say I do not know what is the outcome of KQBB versus KQR endgame in general. This has been solved by tablebases but I do not know whether the stronger side can win in most cases or is it a draw in most cases. I have feeling it is very much position dependent. |
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| May-04-14 | | 1d410: Kramnik mines the ending positions for gold. |
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