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Roeland Pruijssers vs Jose Fernando Cuenca Jimenez
Bundesliga (2014/15), Bremen GER, rd 2, Oct-19
Italian Game: Classical Variation. Giuoco Pianissimo (C53)  ·  0-1



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Kibitzer's Corner
May-06-21  mel gibson: I got this one wrong.
I thought 20...Nxd4 because I saw
the pin of the f2 pawn.
but it's
20... Bxd4

Stockfish 13 says

20... Bxd4

(20. .. Bxd4

(♗a7xd4 c3xd4 ♘c6xd4 ♕f3xg4 ♕d7xg4 f2-f3 ♕g4-g5 ♖f1-f2 ♕g5-c5 ♗b3xf7 ♖g8-g7 ♘e1-d3 ♕c5-g5 ♘d3-e1 ♖g7xf7 ♘e1-c2 ♘d4-e6 ♖a1-d1 ♕g5-g3 ♘c2-d4 ♘e6-g5 ♔g1-f1 ♕g3-h2 b2-b4 ♔c8-b8 b4-b5 a6xb5 ♔f1-e2 ♖f7-f8 ♖d1-f1 b5-b4 ♔e2-d1 c7-c5 ♘d4-b3 ♘g5-e6 ♘b3-a5 ♔b8-c7 ♔d1-c1 h6-h5 ♘a5-c4 b7-b5) +6.83/39 206)

score for Black +6.83 depth 39.

Premium Chessgames Member
  drollere: the potential B pin on f2 seemed useful, but i led with Nxd4 to clear the way. versus the game, i don't see how cxd4 Nxd4 22. Qh3 is necessarily worse than the game line, where white seems to be flailing.
May-06-21  Walter Glattke: 20.-Ne5 21.dxe5 Rg3 22.Qh5 neighter 22.-Rh3 23.Qxf7 nor 22.-f3 23.Nxf3 Rxg2+ 24.Kh1 seem to work. 20.-Bxd4 21.cxd4 Nxd4 22.Qh3 Rxg2+ 23.Qxg2 Ne2+ 24.Kh2 (24.Kh1? Qh3#) Rxg2+ 25.Kxg2 Qg4+ 26.Kh2 perpetual or 26.-f3 27.Nxf3 Qxf3 They played 21.Ba4, but one must not do that.
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: White's c-pawn protects d4. This suggests 20... Bxa7 21.cxd4 (else loses a pawn and both e5 and g3 become weak) 21... Nxd4:

A) 22.Qh3 Rxg2+ 23.Qxg2 Rxg2+ 24.Kxg2 (24.Nxg2 Nf3+ 25.Kh1 Qh3#) 24... Qg4+ 25.Kh2 (25.Kh1 Qh3+ 26.Kg1 Ne2#) 25... Qh4+

A.1) 26.Kg2 f3+ 27.Nxf3 (27.Kg1 Ne2#) 27... Qg4+ 28.Kh1 (28.Kh2 Nxf3+ 29.Kh1 Qh3#) 28... Nxf3 and mate in two.

A.2) 26.Kg1 f3 27.Bd1(c4) Ne2+ 28.Bxe2 fxe2, followed by exf1=Q+, wins decisive material.

B) 22.Qd1 Rxg2+ 23.Nxg2 (23.Kh1 Qh3#) 23... Qh3 and mate soon.

C) 22.Qc(d)3 Rxg2+

C.1) 23.Nxg2 Qg4 24.Qg3 Nxf3+ 25.Kh1 (25.Qxf3 Qxf3 and mate in two) 25... fxg3 and mate soon.

C.2) 23.Kh1 Qg4 is winning.

D) 22.Qxg4 Qxg4 23.f3 (23.Bxf7 Ne2+ 24.Kh1(2) Qh4#) 23... Qg6 wins decisive material.

May-06-21  Walter Glattke: Ah, Stockfish plays 22.Qxg4 instead of 22.Qh3, the metal brain wins with that.
May-06-21  Walter Glattke: And 23.-Ne2+, hoping for 24. Kh1? Qh3# was wrong, later Ne2/Ne3 wins, maybe today agb better than gibson?
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: I meant 20... Bxd4.
May-06-21  Brenin: I chose 20 ... Bxd4, hoping for 21 cxd4 Nxd4, followed by 22 Rxg2+ and the invasion of White's K-side with moves like Ne2+, Qg4+ and f3. White can (and did) decline the B sac, but then the pin on White's P on f2 allows lethal moves like Rg3.
May-06-21  stacase: 20...Bxd4 My dear departed brother said, find the piece that isn't doing his job. And that piece on this board was that dopey fienchettoed Bishop. Pinning the f2 Pawn is a job well done. If nothing else, it gains a Pawn. There are lots of moves to choose from after White shores up the impending attack on his Queen.
Premium Chessgames Member
  master8ch: Black could have finished the game with a nice little combo: 25...Rxg2+ 26.Nxg2 Rh1+ 27.Kxh1 Qh3+, with mate at g2.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Messiah: Terrible!
Premium Chessgames Member
  ClassZPlaya: Not that it should ultimately change the result but I don't understand why White didn't try 23. e6! instead of 23. Qh5 in the game continuation. If 23. e6 Qxd6 24. Qxc6 is still fighting and 24. Qd8 allows 24. ... exf7. If White is not planning to make use of this resource then why play 22. e5? Best for Black is probably 23. e6 fxe6 24. Qxf4 e5 25 Qd4 d5 26. Qh4 transposing into lines similar to the game continuation.
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Walls evict Bxd4 giggle accommodate mucky again i quaint revolve walls evict alp gap law again lag publish micks nicks quandary darts feed its duo evict jovial its gels evict phony crib with dumb evict its coot daddy evict totup finish arrived its divide gungho its dongle hubbub its quite cobra Bxd4 caddy i evict that’s all folks no?
May-06-21  AlicesKnight: I went for ... Bxd4 but went astray in the follow-up. Some pretty pin exploitation.
May-06-21  Cellist: I saw many of the motives in the right solution but went for 20. ... Ne5, hoping to do 21. ... Rg3 if White accepted the sacrifice, but that loses. The engine says that 21. ... Rh4 (instead of Rg3) secures a small advantage for Black (+0.75), but not more.
Premium Chessgames Member
  drollere: <The engine says>

i don't quite agree with user Sally Simpson that "So all computer analysis should be ignored" (Botvinnik v. Tal, gid=1032537). but i do announce that computers are not really helpful in the kibitzing.

a few GOTD back someone posted a computer analysis of three different solution moves to the puzzle. all scored out at about the same advantage, which to my mind proved not only that there was no single "correct" solution to the puzzle, but that you wouldn't know that fact unless you ran all the variants and compared the scores.

none of the comments above have explained why N before B at d4 is the inferior way to proceed, or why.

mr. mel gibson chose the same move as myself, but seems chastened by his own machine, posts the analysis and is content. i don't use machines, so i demur.

there are forcing combinations in chess, sure; but there are also positions, such as today's puzzle, where one player (white) seems to be in a bad way already and will probably suffer defeat (if for no other reason than a surfeit of pawns). the pawn shove to e5, hoping to clear the Q check at a8, seemed especially desperate.

it's fine to declare that you found a puzzle "hard" or "easy", or solved it in so many seconds. chess is a contest, and what is a contest if you don't accrue bragging rights?

but the general kibitz culture that declares "the correct move" without analyzing alternative moves is simply blindered. you've been suckered by machine output into thinking that chess is mechanical rather than fluid, chess play is linear rather than recursive, and outcomes are foreordained rather than murky.

here's the unanswered question: why is Nxd4 followed by Bxd4 the "wrong," "incorrect," "inferior" move? and if inferior, by how much?

the computer won't tell you unless you ask it, and my point is that most users with most positions in most puzzles never ask it. they set up the puzzle position, run the analysis once from that position, and declare whatever comes out as THE solution. even in a position as bad for white as this one.

no one has put the question to the computer, and acg2002 didn't go down that road, so i suppose that will remain a question without an answer.

May-06-21  1g1yy: Quite decisive, but I thought Nx rather than Bx as the starting move... So my lines were nothing near as winning as the game line. There was a lot going on for me to get it in the limited time I spent. Mine was 'winning', but wow, nothing like the game.
May-06-21  1g1yy: <drollere: none of the comments above have explained why N before B at d4 is the inferior way to proceed, or why.>

After I saw the game line it became obvious to me. Nx ends up with you losing the N, where as Bx walks into an indefensible fork and 2P down after the minor trade. But I had a brain spasm when I initially considered Bx, unable to see the forced nature of it and the fact that black can't recapture.

Jmho, so I'd welcome being corrected on this.

May-06-21  Refused: White's King looks suspect. The only thing that stops black from crashing in is the queen on f3.

So 20....Bxd4 and now white has to find a way to stop the knight kicking out the queen.

Ah white found a way to prolong the suffering with 21.Ba4 b5 22.e5 Rg3 But this is really nothing.

May-06-21  goodevans: <drollere: <The engine says> ...>

Nice post. I don't agree with every word of it but I do agree with most of it and with its sentiment.

I don't mind when a few kibitzers post deep analyses as long as it's not the be all and end all. The main point, surely, is to understand <why> a move is good or bad and silicon analyses can help in that respect. But...

1. Typically only the 'optimum' line is published and often a few moves in the losing side simply gives up its Q or fails to try to protect something any human would think crucial. The engine reckons it's better to just abandon it but then it's up to us to determine why.

2. They can be plain wrong. They're not infallible and sometimes make absolutely howlers that even patzers like me can spot so to treat their utterances with divine reverence is a mistake.

Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <goodevans....The main point, surely, is to understand <why> a move is good or bad and silicon analyses can help in that respect....>

The key is understanding their evaluations and examining the position more deeply to gain further knowledge and understanding, not simply saying to oneself, 'omg, this is -.62 and that, -.54; what do I do now?'

There is no substitute for the ability to think critically, in chess or life.

Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: No game bishop d4 runner no
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Sorry federal it is no?

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