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Ivan Salgado Lopez vs Das Debashis
Qatar Masters (2014), Doha QAT, rd 7, Dec-02
Sicilian Defense: Alapin Variation. Barmen Defense Modern Line (B22)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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find similar games 3 more I Salgado Lopez/D Debashis games
sac: 41.Qxg3 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Dec-26-15  stst: After reading some of the comments, I think CG should better put up some more conclusive games, rather than those even engines got a hard time to determine any side got any advantage.

BUT, maybe exactly for the same reason, CG wants to stir up some discussions in spite of games of sub-par "beauty." (purely personal judgment, some may find this game very interesting, after a 62-41=21 moves to end the game after diagram position.)

Dec-23-18  mel gibson: Yes - I would have traded my Queen for
a Rook and a Knight.

Engines are not very good at these sorts of puzzles. I've been watching neural networks such
as Alpha zero & Leela on Youtube
and Stockfish is getting beaten by them on many games. The engines just look at material gain instead of positions.

Stockfish 10 is calling it a draw which is wrong:

41. Qxg3

(41. Qxg3 {(Qf3xg3 Ne4xg3 Kh2xg3 h6-h5 Rd1-d7
h5-h4+ Kg3-f2 Kh7-g8 Rd7xf7 Qf6-d8 Rf7-d7 Qd8-b8 g2-g3 a6-a5 g3xh4 a5xb4 h4-h5 Qb8-e8 a3xb4 Qe8xh5 Kf2-g3 Qh5-e2 Kg3-h4 Qe2-f2+ Kh4-g5 Qf2-g3+ Kg5-f6 Qg3-h4+ Kf6xe6 Qh4-h6+ Ke6xf5 Qh6-h5+ Kf5-e4 Qh5-e2+ Ke4-d4 Qe2-f2+ Kd4-c3 Qf2-e1+ Rd7-d2 Qe1-c1+ Kc3-d3 Qc1-a3+ Kd3-e2 Qa3xb4 Rd2-d8+ Kg8-g7 Ke2-f3 Qb4xc5 h3-h4 Qc5-g1 Rd8-d6 Qg1-f1+ Kf3-g3 Qf1-g1+ Kg3-h3 Qg1-f1+) 0.00/47 )

score = draw at depth 47.

Dec-23-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  ChessHigherCat: The idea of trading R+N against the Q is far from "insane" in that position and is even the only tactic available as far as I can see, but playing accurately all the way to a win is far from obvious.
Dec-23-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Alex Schindler: Don't know what is "insane" about this puzzle. There is only one reasonable way to sac a queen in the position, and there isn't really anything else exciting to try. And the logic of a queen sac here is quite intuitive given the terrible displacement of the other queen, and the wonderful knight, and favorable pawn structure, and king safety, and open file in favor of the side with two pieces. Did I calculate all the knight maneuvering afterwards? Hell no. And maybe in a classical game it would be worth the effort to be sure, time allowing. But in a blitz game? That would be my move with ten seconds of thought.
Dec-23-18  devere: The obvious 41.Qxg3! is certainly the best try, but after 42...h5! it is a draw with best play.
Dec-23-18  Mayankk: I guess everyone saw the potential of 41 Qxg3 and the helplessness of Black Queen against White’s Rook and Knight combo. Also no one could calculate this to be a clear win for White.

My only added thought is - If 41 Qxg3 is not a clear win, what is wrong with the very simple 41 Qh5? It puts more pressure on the f7 pawn while also taking the White Queen to safety.

Dec-23-18  devere: < Mayankk: I guess everyone saw the potential of 41 Qxg3 and the helplessness of Black Queen against White’s Rook and Knight combo. Also no one could calculate this to be a clear win for White.

My only added thought is - If 41 Qxg3 is not a clear win, what is wrong with the very simple 41 Qh5? It puts more pressure on the f7 pawn while also taking the White Queen to safety.>

Black stands better after 41.Qh5 Qg7 42.Rg1 f6

Dec-23-18  7he5haman: <devere: The obvious 41.Qxg3! is certainly the best try, but after 42...h5! it is a draw with best play.>

What about 43.h4 to prevent 43...h4+? Then continue as per game.

I've seen no one consider this move.

Dec-23-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  OrangeTulip: Swapping Her Majesty against the Rook and the noble Horse is hardly a sacrifice is this position, but it is hard working to make it fruitful.
Dec-23-18  AlicesKnight: I saw the Q-sac but was unsure if the Q escape could be prevented. <Mehem> - 26/12/15 - and <devere> have a point; going for a break with ... h5 to open the a-file for the Black Q seems possible. In the game Black seems to waste time after the Q-sac, and the N on d6 cleverly blocks a Q exit at b5. 43....Qh8; 44.Rd7 Qa8; 45.Nxf7 h5 and something will give. <7heShaman> On move 43 White must first avoid the check, and Black has time for ...h5 followed by ...Qf8/f6 to begin to wriggle out; although by avoiding Pg3 White has more shelter for the K.
Dec-23-18  Walter Glattke: 46.-a5 instead of 46.-h5 with the aim Qb2+ seems better for draw, while change on f7 with Rxf7+ Qxf7 Nxf7 Kxf7 brings a pawn more for white.
Dec-23-18  DonChalce: the black queen is really useless with that pawn move.
Dec-23-18  Articalplayer: Like the way Black Queen was put out of action by Rook-Knight combination.
Dec-23-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: Black threatens Rxf3.

The advanced c-pawn suggests 41.Qxg3 Nxg3 42.Kxg3 with the idea Nxc6:

A) 42... Qg7+ 43.Kh2

A.1) 43... f6 44.Rd7 fxe5 45.Rxg7+ Kxg7 46.fxe5 with an extra pawn and a won ending (the king marches to the h-file to threaten Black's h-pawn and eventually followed by a4 and b5).

A.2) 43... Qf8 44.Nxc6 with the idea of pushing the c-pawn with rook and knight. For example, 44... Qe8 45.Rd6 Qc8 (to answer a4 with Qb7) 46.Nd8 Kg8 47.c6 Qc7 48.Rd4 e5 49.Rd7 Qb8 50.c7 Qc8 51.Nc6 Qxd7 52.c8=Q+ Qxc8 53.Ne7+ wins.

B) 42... Qh8 43.Rd7 seems to win. For example, 43... Qb8 44.Rxf7+ Kb8 (44... Kh8 45.Ng6+ Kg8 46.Rf8+) 45.Rd7 Qb5 46.Rd6 and Black's c-pawn is lost.

Dec-23-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: I didn't remember this one.
Dec-23-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: I solved this. I considered White's best chance was to take the rook then block Black out as much as possible and in the even of a King ending careful play meant a win for White. Otherwise White has the chances.
Dec-23-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: This was not easy. The hard part is judging the position. Overall it is easier for White. His only fear in most situations after exchanging the Q for R and N is that it might be a draw, or a blunder in the pawn ending.

Of course it would still take some courage (and knowledge of this kind of position) to go for it in a real game.

Dec-23-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: <agb2002: I didn't remember this one.>

Funny you should say that -- even if it has been on before -- as I recall Alekhine playing a tactic which he said: "Was not of a kind I had come across in my analysis and (memorization) of such methods." Something such as that which belied the idea that his tactical ability was only due to his capacity. He enhanced it by much practice.

Of course he also studied opening theory assiduously.

Dec-23-18  Spassfish: Chess engines take the beauty out of this game and destroy the fun of the human factor. Lets get BORED with stocktrout. Putting your pieces at the corner of squares to unnerve OCD opponents & getting big buggers out of your schnoz while your opponent cringes...that is a chess game.
Dec-23-18  devere: < 7he5haman: <devere: The obvious 41.Qxg3! is certainly the best try, but after 42...h5! it is a draw with best play.> What about 43.h4 to prevent 43...h4+? Then continue as per game. >

41.Qxg3 Nxg3 42.Kxg3 h5 43.h4 Qh8 44.Rd7 Qb8 45.Rxf7+ Kg8 46.Re7 Qb5 47.Rxe6 Qa4


click for larger view

Black can get enough counterplay with his queen to force a draw.

Dec-23-18  drollere: i went with Qh5 and Nxf7, which seems to be a draw.
Dec-23-18  Nina Myers: What a bunch of bullsh1t.
Dec-23-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Breunor: I usually struggle with Wednesday on puzzles but I got this. My logic was that once the queen is traded for a rook and knight, the white queen can't do much while white controls the D file.

I then thought white would take the pawn at f7 potentially giving back the rook and knight for the black queen if black abides and have a pawn up K + P endgame; and if black just lets the pawn fall I reasoned white had a good game.

Dec-23-18  Everett: I would play the continuation in a game very quickly. My N and R would have no issues holding the draw, and I might just win.
Dec-24-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: <Richard Taylor: <agb2002: I didn't remember this one.>

Funny you should say that...>

Chess seems to be far more about memory than raw logic but, in my case and surely I'm not alone, fun comes from discovery of puzzle motifs, subtle details, etc., not from recalling them.

That's why I prefer to post 'Recycled' or 'I remember this game' instead of reworking the puzzle if I can recall even a slight detail.

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