< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Mar-05-15|| ||diagonalley: ps. how is it that a 2290-rated player can get himself into such a godawful position anyhow(?!)|
|Mar-05-15|| ||morfishine: <15.Rxf8+> followed by 15...Kxf8 <16.Qf3+>
and White Queen breaks through at <f7>|
<diagonalley> Good Question <ps. how is it that a 2290-rated player can get himself into such a godawful position anyhow(?!)> I've been asking this or a similar question like this for about 4 years now
|Mar-05-15|| ||HaydenB: An analogous position from a similar opening, Tal-Tringov 1965, had Tal leaving 2 pieces en prise while threatening mate, brilliant.|
|Mar-05-15|| ||cocker: Got the first two moves, couldn't see it through.|
|Mar-05-15|| ||Nick46: <OlymposGR: Easy!> True. What's not EASY is to set puzzles, week in week out, with seven calibrated grades of varying difficulty.|
|Mar-05-15|| ||rogl: So, after nine moves black had moved the queen four times to reach a bad square and the queen knight twice to reach a bad square, and this to win a lousy pawn.|
|Mar-05-15|| ||jjones5050: Could someone tell me why in the following game won by black could white not have held with 25. f3
Speilmann vs Eliskases
Semmering (1936) · Italian Game: Two Knights Defense. Polerio Defense Goering Variation (C59) · 0-1
|Mar-05-15|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: Instead of counting material, we should count pieces on their original squares. Black has 6 (including the king), white 1. The e6 pawn alone provides ample compensation for white's nominal piece deficit. Even worse, the developed black queen is screened from the defense of the king. There are likely multiple solutions here, but simplest appears to be|
15.Rxf8+ and now
A) 15... Kxf8 16.Qf3+ Ke8|e7 17.Qf7+ Kd8 18.Qf8+ Kc7 19.Qd6#
A.1) 16... Kg7 17.Qf7+ Kh6 18.Qf8#
A.2) 16... Qf5 16.Nxf5 gxf5 17.Qxf5+ Kg7 (Ke8 18.Qf7+ forces mate as in main line) 18.Qf7+ Kh6 19.Nf5#
A.2) 16... Nf6 17.Qxf6+ Ke8 (Kg8 18.Qf7#) 18.Qxh8+ Ke7 19.Qg7+ Ke8 20.Qf7+ Kd8 21.Qf8+ Kc7 22.Qd6#
B) 15... Ke7 16.Qf3 Bxe6 (Nh6 17.Qf6#) 17.Rf7+ Bxf7 (otherwise 18.Bxe6) 18.Qxf7+ Kd8 19.Qf8+ Kd7 20.Qd6+ Ke8 (Kc8 21.Be6+ etc) 21.Rf1 and the dual threat of Rf8# and Bf7# can't be met.
|Mar-05-15|| ||TheaN: Thursday 5 March 2015 <15.?>|
White is down a full bishop, the dark squared one. As compensation black's king is still in the center, white has the open f-file, a dangerous pawn on e6 and two active knights around the black king. All in all, this position screams for a winning combination.
White fires on the f-file with <15.Rxf8+!>. Black can decline, but lets look at accepting first:
A) <15....Kxf8> normally reloading with the rook would be logical here, as it activates the only inactive piece. However, white is now down a rook and really has to look at mating. Instead of the rook white will use the queen instead, whom is now fairly passive too, to take control over the dark squares. <16.Qf3+>.
A1) <15....Kg7 16.Qf7+ Kh6 17.Qf8# 1-0>
A2) <15....Ke7/Ke8 16.Qf7+ Kd8 17.Qf8+ Kc7 18.Qd6# 1-0>
A3) <15....Nf6 16.Qxf6+ Ke8 (Kg8 17.Qf7#) 17.Nd6# 1-0>
A4) <15....Qf5> the only defense that is not immediately mate <16.Nxf5 > but it does cost black at least queen for rook, as after 16....gxf5 17.Qxf5+ Kg7 (all other variations are the same as above) 18.Qxg5+ Kf8 19.Rf1+ Nf6 20.Qxf6+ Ke8 21.Nd6# it's still mate.
B) <15....Ke7> crucial to note that when black declines, material is even. <16.Qf3!> yeah, of course. The situation is not necessarily different with or without the Rf8 on the board. The only reasonable way for black to defend against mate is with <16....Bxe6> but now <17.Rxa8 > and the pieces and go back in the box.
|Mar-05-15|| ||Harvestman: Black's play was not so much a defence as an invitation for white to attack.|
|Mar-05-15|| ||Penguincw: I got 15.Rxf8+ Kxf8. I might've gotten the rest OTB.|
|Mar-05-15|| ||Vermit: On move 1 Black prepared to fianchetto his bishop. He never carried out his simple plan, and it seems only just that White ends the game by capturing the very piece he never developed.|
|Mar-05-15|| ||dfcx: white down a bishop, but with huge development advantages.
A. 15...Kxf8 16.Qf3+
A1. Qf5 17.Nxf5
A2. 16...Ke8/e7? 17.Qf7+ Kd8 18.Qf8+ Kc7 19.Qd6#
A3. 16...Kg7 17.Qf7+ Kh6 18.Qf8#
A4. 16...Nf6 17.Qxf6+ Ke8 (Kg8 Qf7#) 18.Nd6#
B. 15...Ke7 16. Qf3 Bxe6 17.Rf7+
B1 17...Bxf7 18.Qxf7+ Kd8 19.Nc5
B2 17...Kd8 18.Bxe6
|Mar-05-15|| ||Cheapo by the Dozen: I solved it as per the following:
White is a piece down. His attack needs speed, as ... Nh6 would disrupt a lot of his chances. OK then; let's try for:
19 Rxf8+ Kxf8
20 Qf3+ Ke7
21 Qf7+ Kd8
22 Qf8+ Kc7
Black has a few ways to deviate:
20 ... Kd8 just subtracts a move from the mating line. Nothing to see.
20 ... Qf5 leaves White with a small material advantage and a big attack. No need to analyze it.
20 ... Kg7 runs into 21 Qf7+ Kh6 2 Qf83
So that just leaves us with 19 ... Ke7. But
19 Rxf8+ Ke7
threatens mate at f7 or, if Black plays 20 ... Nh6, then at f6. And if 20 ... Bxe6, then 21 Bxe6 renews the threats. Black can sacrifice his queen at f5 as in other lines, but otherwise he's quickly mated.
|Mar-05-15|| ||patzer2: Four for Four this week, seeing all the way through from today's Thursday puzzle solution 15. Rxf8!+ to the game finish.|
Here's my look at the game using Fritz 12:
<1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nc3 c6 4. Bg5 Qb6 5. Bc4!> The gambit offer is sound, as White's development and attacking chances are worth more than the sacrificed pawn.
Though perhaps not as strong as 5. Bc4!, an alternative poisoned pawn offer is 5. a3!? when taking the bait with 5...Qxb2?? (better is 5...Bg7 6. Nc3 ) 6. Na4 traps and wins the Queen.
<5... Qxb2 6. Nge2! Qb4 7. Qd3 Nd7 8. 0-0 Nb6 9. Bb3 Qa5 10. f4 d5 11. Ng3 e6?> Already behind in development, this can't be good for Black.
Instead, Black best seems to be 11...h6! when play might go 12. Bh4 Bd7 13. Nge2 0-0-0 14. f5 .
<12. f5 dxe4?> This error was not at all obvious. However, given what's coming, Black needed to try 12... Bh6! when play might go 13. exd5 cxd5 14. Bxh6 Nxh6 15. Qe3 Ng4 16. Qe1 O-O .
<13. fxe6!!> This brilliant winning move is worthy of a Sunday puzzle.
If Black takes the Queen with 13... exd3, then White wins with 14. exf7+ Kd7 15. fxg8=Q when play might continue 15...Rxg8 16. Rf7+ Be7 (16... Kd6 17. Nge4#) 17. Rxe7+ Kd8 18. Re5+ Kd7 19. Rxa5 .
<14. Ncxe4 fxg5 15. Rxf8+ Kxf8>
If 15... Ke7, White wins easily with any number of moves. I like 15...Ke7 16. Rf7+! when play might go 16...Kd8 17. Qe3 Ne7 18.
Nc5 Re8 19. Qe5! .
<16. Qf3+ Kg7>
If 16... Ke8, then 17. Qf7+ Kd8 18. Qf8+ Kc7 19. Qd6#.
If 16... Ke7, then 17. Qf7+ Kd8 18. Qf8+ Kc7 19. Qd6#.
If 16... Nf6, then 17. Qxf6+ Ke8 18.
<17. Qf7+ Kh6 18. Qf8#>
|Mar-05-15|| ||Longview: Got it! Wonder of wonders. Saw the Rf1+ and the lack of followup opportunities but then saw the Qf3+ allowing the slide down to f7 and the hangman's noose starts to tighten into place! I was anticipating the game move to be Ke7 because Kg7 leads quickly to mate. Black must have seen it was hopeless and moved to end the process mercifully!|
Great look at it <Patzer> thanks for pointing our the key usefulness of <13.fxe6!!> also. <TheaN> great look at the options. I had not considered the decline or the Nf6 options. I am too one lane rutted in my thinking. Bad habit. I bumfuggled into the right one this time though. Hurrah!!
|Mar-05-15|| ||kevin86: The rook sac sets the stage for a quick queen mate.|
|Mar-05-15|| ||Jimfromprovidence: I got 15 Rxf8+ Ke7 16 Rf7+ Kd8 17 Nc5!
click for larger view
17 Nc5 blocks the queen, pins the bishop because of Nxb7+ and threatens 18 Rxb7 or e7+.
|Mar-05-15|| ||MindCtrol9: This was an easy puzzle where it did not take me any time to see that15.Ref8 was the killer move.Sometimes I can not say the same.|
|Mar-05-15|| ||MindCtrol9: This was an easy puzzle where it did not take me any time to see that15.Rxf8 was the killer move.Sometimes I can not say the same.|
|Mar-05-15|| ||BOSTER: <thegoldenband: maybe 13...f5 gets tricky>.|
No. After 14.Ncxe4 if fxe4 15.Rxf8+ Kxf8 16.Qf1+ Ke8 17.Qf7#.
<HaydenB: An analogous pos. leaving 2 pieces en prise while threatening mate, brilliant>.
I don't think that white had the mating attack after, for ex., 13...Be6.
|Mar-05-15|| ||scormus: <patzer2> nice analysis! Yes, in a way this gem of a game was slightly wasted on producing a "medium" puzzle, and a fairly easy medium at that. 13 W to play would have been a real test, a true Sunday puzzle. |
In the game continuation 13 ... f6 leads to a clear win for W, but also gives W a clear advantage against the better defence 13 ... Bxe6! (14 Ncxe4 Nd5 15 Rae1 h6 16 Bd2 Qa3 17 c4 Nc7 18 d5 +ca. 2 according to Rybka). But I think that sequence might take some finding.
<Jim> Yes, ... Ke7 might be objectively best, Rybka thinks so anyway! But B's position would be hopeless after 16 Rf7 or, even stronger, 16 Qf3 first. B is then no longer a piece up. So ... Kxf8 was quite understandable as an alternative to 0-1.
|Mar-05-15|| ||ajk68: 10...d5 What is the point of this move?
I would think black should play something like Bg7.
|Mar-05-15|| ||Mating Net: That was great analysis by <patzer2> as usual, on the worthiness of a Sunday puzzle if Black had captured the Queen. However, since the Queen was declined, it's awkward to post a Sunday puzzle from that position, IMHO. Many of us would have been up in arms doing our best Fischer rants because the Queen wasn't taken.|
|Mar-06-15|| ||thegoldenband: <BOSTER: No. After 14.Ncxe4 if fxe4 15.Rxf8+ Kxf8 16.Qf1+ Ke8 17.Qf7#.>|
Yes, of course I realize (and realized) that 14...fxe4 leads to quick defeat, but Black need not take the Knight, e.g. 14...Nd5. It's still probably winning for White, but material is (temporarily) equal and some accuracy is still required.
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