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|Jul-30-16|| ||Patriot: 20.Rxh7+ Kxh7 21.Ng5+ Kg8 22.Nxe6 Rxf3 23.Nc7 is pretty easy to find. The counter-play isn't so easy but black has a lot of work to do to maintain a balance.|
|Jul-30-16|| ||YouRang: As for white's 20th move, my engine suggests that white has two reasonably playable moves: |
 20.Rxh7 (as played)
With <20.Rh4> black can take the pawn with <20...Rxf3> but then <21.Ng5!> forks R and Be6, leaving black with nothing better than <21...Rxc3+ 22.bxc3 Bg8>
click for larger view
And here the engine likes 23.a4! because the tempting 23...Nxa4 is met by 24.e5!, and having to stop this passed pawn creates some surprisingly serious trouble for black.
But even if black resists 23...Nxa4, and plays the recommended <23...a5>, white is still better after <24.Rh2>. It seems that white can regroup to attack black's weak queenside and push the passed e-pawn.
Following this line a ways, I see evals around +1.00 and rising, so arguably <20.Rh4> is just as good or better than 20.Rxh7.
|Jul-30-16|| ||Patriot: <Once> On 20.Ng5 Bg8, I would try 21.Rxh7+ Bxh7 22.Ne6+ Kf6 23.Nxf8 Kxf8 24.Rd8+ and "if" 24...Ke7 25.Rh8 wins the trapped bishop. 24...Kg7 and black needs to unwriggle with something like ...Nbd7, ...a5, etc.|
But it's best to avoid this altogether. This shows the importance of considering all the defenses. And 20...Bg8 is very logical since it accomplishes two things: 1) Defends the bishop; 2) Defends the weak h7 square. Aside from those it renews the threat on h7 and leads to winning f3.
|Jul-30-16|| ||Patriot: <Once> I guess he doesn't have to do a lot of unwriggling - ...Nbd7 is good enough since the rook is guarded by Nb6.|
|Jul-30-16|| ||agb2002: The material is identical.
Black threatens Kxh6 and Rxf3.
The defenseless bishop on e6 and pawn on h7 and the possibility of creating a mating net suggest 20.Ng5:
A) 20... Kxh6 21.Nxe6
A.1) 21... Rxf3 22.g5+ (22.Bg2 Rxc3+ 23.bxc3 g5 -due to Rh1#- 24.Nc7 + - [R+B vs 2N+P]) 22... Kh5 23.Be2 Kg4 24.Rg1+ and 25.Bxf3 + - [B vs P].
A.2) 21... Rf7 (or 21... Rc8) 22.Bd3 g5 23.e5 Rxf3 24.Rh1+ Rh3 25.Rxh3#.
A.3) 21... Rf6 22.g5+ Kh5 23.gxf3 wins a piece at least.
A.4) 21... Re8 22.g5+ Kh5 23.Ng7+ Kxg5 24.Nxe8 + - [B vs P].
B) 20... Bg8 21.Rh2 h6 22.Nh3 Rxf3 loses a pawn.
Another option is 20.Rxh7+:
A) 20... Kxh7 21.Ng5+
A.1) 21... Kg7 22.Nxe6+ Kf7 23.Nxf8 wins a pawn.
A.2) 21... Kg8 22.Nxe6
A.2.a) 22... Rxf3 23.Rd8+ Kh7 24.Ng5+ and 25.Nxf3 + - [B].
A.2.b) 22... Rf7 23.Rd8+ Kh7 24.Ng5+ Kg7 25.Nxf7 wins a pawn at least.
A.2.c) 22... Rc8 23.Nc5 seems to provide enough compensation for the material. For example, 23... Rc7 24.Rd8+ Kf7 (24... Kg7 25.Ne6+ and 26.Nxc7 wins) 25.f4 Ke7 (25... N8d7 26.Rxa8 Nxa8 27.e6+ wins decisive material) 26.Rg8 Kf7 27.Rg7+ Kxg7 28.Ne6+ Kf7 29.Nxc7 and 30.Nxa8 with an extra pawn and the better ending.
A.3) 21... Kh6 22.Nxe6 looks similar to A after 20.Ng5 with the difference of the pawn on h7. For example, 22... Rc8 23.Ba6 Kh7 (23... bxa6 24.Rh1#) 24.Bxb7 Re8 25.Ng5+ Kh6 26.Nf7+ Kg7 27.Nd6 wins two pawns at least.
A.4) 21... Kh8 22.Nxe6 is similar to A.2.
B) 20... Kg8 21.Rxb7 Rxf3 22.Ng5 Rf6 23.e5 wins decisive material.
I think I'd play 20.Rxh7+.
|Jul-30-16|| ||RandomVisitor: On 20.Rh4 black has 20...N8d7
click for larger view
<+0.09/36 20...N8d7 21.Be2 Rae8 22.Rh1 Rh8> 23.b3 h6 24.f4 Nc5 25.f5 Bc8 26.Nf2 a5 27.g5 h5 28.fxg6 Ref8 29.R1h2 Nbd7 30.Kd2 Ne5 31.Ke3 Kxg6 32.Rxh5 Rxh5 33.Bxh5+ Kxg5 34.Kd4 Ncd7 35.Be2 b6 36.Rg2+ Kf6 37.Ng4+ Nxg4 38.Bxg4 Rd8 39.Bxd7 Bxd7 40.e5+ Kf7 41.Rf2+ Ke7 42.Ne4 c5+ 43.Ke3 Rh8 44.Ng5 Be6
|Jul-30-16|| ||Shamot: Why 23. Rd8+ was not played by white? It leads to material gain. Any move by black king to get him out of check leads to white knight forking the black king and rook.|
|Jul-30-16|| ||RandomVisitor: <Shamot>After 23.Rd8+ Kf7 black escapes with the better position|
click for larger view
-0.78/27 24.Rf8+ Kxe6 25.Rxf3 N8d7 26.Rh3 Ne5 27.Be2 a5 28.g5 Rf8 29.a3 Rf2 30.Rh8 Nbd7 31.Ra8 Nc5 32.Kd1 Ned3 33.Kc2 b5 34.Rxa5 Nf4 35.Kd1 Nxe4 36.Nxe4 Rxe2 37.Nc5+ Kf5 38.Ra6 Rxb2 39.Rxc6 Kxg5 40.a4 Kf5
-2.05/27 24.Ng5+ Ke7 25.Nxf3 Kxd8 26.Ne5 g5 27.Nf7+ Ke7 28.Nxg5 N8d7 29.Nf3 Rf8 30.Be2 Nc4 31.Nd4 Nce5 32.Kd2 Rg8 33.Nf5+ Kf6 34.b4 Nxg4 35.Nd6 b6 36.b5 Nge5 37.bxc6 Nxc6 38.Bb5 Rg2+ 39.Ke3 Rg3+ 40.Kd2 Nde5 41.Nf5 Rg2+ 42.Ke3 Kg5 43.a3 Rh2 44.Ne2 Rh3+ 45.Neg3 a5 46.Kd2
-2.65/27 24.Nc7 Rxf1+ 25.Kc2 Rf2+ 26.Kd1 Ke7 27.Rg8 Rf8 28.Rxg6 N8d7 29.Nxa8 Nxa8 30.Ne2 Ne5 31.Rg7+ Rf7 32.Rg5 Kd6 33.Ng3 Nc7 34.Rg8 Kc5 35.Nf5 Rd7+ 36.Ke2 Ne6 37.g5 Rd3 38.b3 Nf4+ 39.Ke1 b6 40.Kf2 Kb4 41.Rg7 a5 42.Re7
|Jul-30-16|| ||RandomVisitor: 20.Rh4 still looks about equal
click for larger view
<+0.03/41 20...N8d7 21.Be2 Rae8 22.Rh1 Rh8> 23.f4 Nc5 24.b3 Nxe4 25.Nxe4 Bd5 26.Nhg5 h6 27.Bd3 hxg5 28.Rxh8 Rxh8 29.Rxh8 Kxh8 30.Nxg5 Kg7 31.Kd2 Bg8 32.f5 gxf5 33.Bxf5 Kh6 34.Ne4 Nd5 35.Bd7 b6 36.g5+ Kg7 37.Nd6 Kg6 38.Bxc6 Ne7 39.Bg2 Kxg5 40.Ke3 Nf5+ 41.Nxf5 Kxf5 42.Kd4 Kf4 43.Bd5 Bh7 44.a3 Bg6 45.Bc4 a5 46.Kd5 b5 47.Be2 Bf7+
|Jul-30-16|| ||BOSTER: < FSR: but it is not obvious that it wins>.
20.Rxh7 is the classical rook sacr on h7.
And this move created a lot problem for black defence in the real game.
So, using <another busted puzzle> does not
sound for me.
|Jul-30-16|| ||Hodor: cuoldn't suolve dis|
|Jul-30-16|| ||drollere: material is even and the positions are comparable but white has the edge in development. the point is to bring black's weaknesses to a failure.|
the Q file (d6) does not offer much; the KB pawn is under attack, but this does not seem to matter.
my first thought was:
20. Ng5 Kxh6 (otherwise Rh7+)
21. Nxe6 Rxf3 (otherwise Nxf8)
22. Bg2 Rxc3+
23. c3 ... (any)
the reply 20. ... Bg8 seems good, so i concede Rxh7+ is better. the remaining play is clever and pretty.
|Jul-30-16|| ||jackg: This site is " infected". When "you have 1 message" is opened a trap is sprung.|
|Jul-30-16|| ||YouRang: <RandomVisitor: 20.Rh4 still looks about equal |
<+0.03/41 20...N8d7 21.Be2 Rae8 22.Rh1 Rh8> 23.f4 Nc5...>
Yes, my earlier analysis was based on assumption that black would grab the Pf3 (which is, at least at lower depths, a well-regarded option). So my conclusion that there was no difference was a bit of an overstatement.
|Jul-30-16|| ||YouRang: <jackg> What? Where does it say you have 1 message??|
|Jul-30-16|| ||OhioChessFan: <YouRang> you have one message:|
|Jul-30-16|| ||patzer2: Didn't learn much from today's busted Saturday puzzle, but thanks to <OCF>'s message for <YouRang> I added "Rickrolling" to my vocabulary :-)|
|Jul-31-16|| ||YouRang: <OhioChessFan> Ah yes, thank you for that, lol.|
I've often thought I would like to visit the universe where people actually behave the way they do in music videos. Five minutes should suffice.
Here's a message for your enjoyment, long distance, all the way from Swedes in space.
|Jul-31-16|| ||Once: <morfishine: Every POTD, or every decisive game ever played can be busted by a modern engine at some point in the game>|
Well, true. There's 1. e4 c5, of course. Not to mention 1. d4 d5.
But it's relatively unusual for a puzzle to be busted at the precise point in the game when we are challenged to find a winning move (or a drawing move in an otherwise lost position).
This is what CG say that we are looking for in each puzzle:
<The goal is to find the best move, or sequence of moves, in the given position.
You do not always have to find a checkmate! Just find the best move.
Usually, this move will lead to a superior position, either by a forced sequence of moves which leads to checkmate, or (more commonly) wins substantial material.
By "substantial material" we mean usually winning at least the exchange (i.e. trading a knight or a bishop for a rook). More commonly the winning move will net a whole piece (bishop/knight/rook) and sometimes will win the queen. Occasionally, the material will be only a single pawn--this usually happens in endgame situations where the extra pawn will surely decide the game.
Sometimes we will present a position where the player who is to move is in a nearly hopeless situation. In these positions you are expected to look for a way to draw the game instead of win it. We don't tell you that you are looking for a draw; you are expected to figure this out by the nature of the position.>
That's why this puzzle (and others like it) are frustrating. The move we are supposed to find doesn't win substantial material or draw an otherwise losing position. Some solvers will reject the key move as not sufficiently winning and will waste a lot of time looking for something better.
|Aug-01-16|| ||FSR: <BOSTER> What <Once> just said.|
|Aug-02-16|| ||morfishine: <Once Well, true. There's 1. e4 c5, of course. Not to mention 1. d4 d5. But it's relatively unusual for a puzzle to be busted at the precise point in the game when we are challenged to find a winning move (or a drawing move in an otherwise lost position).> My point was that a current engine will always find improvements|
If the so-called "puzzle", which really isn't a true, created "puzzle" after-all (since its a position taken from an actual game and not created by a "puzzler"), can be "busted" at that actual position, this is nothing to be complained about. The entity <CG> presenting the problem simply forwarded a less than satisfactory problem/position on that day and did not check all the lines.
And in my view, thats nothing to complain about
I would recommend to just look forward to the next "puzzle"
and if <FSR> is also not happy with the recent "puzzles", then I would recommend that he submit some positions on his own for us to ponder over. His level, rating and stature are sure to guarantee some exquisite problems
best always, morf
|Aug-04-16|| ||PawnSac: I let Stockfish 7 x64 run in the background for a few days on my laptop..|
move 20. ?
white to play
49/88 100:28:34 110,923,276k 307k +0.54
Rh6xh7+ Kg7xh7 Nh3-g5+ Kh7-g8 Ng5xe6 Rf8xf3 Ne6-c7 Rf3-f8 a2-a4 a7-a5 Nc7xa8 Nb6xa8 e4-e5 Na8-c7 e5-e6 Kg8-g7 Bf1-c4 Rf8-f4 b2-b3 Rf4-f3 Kc1-b2 Rf3-f2+ Kb2-a3 Rf2-f3 Nc3-e2 Rf3-f2 e6-e7 b7-b5 a4xb5 c6xb5 e7-e8R Nc7xe8 Bc4xb5 Ne8-f6 g4-g5 Nf6-h7 Rd1-d8 Rf2-f8 Bb5-e8 Nb8-c6 Rd8-d7+ Kg7-h8 Be8xg6 Nh7xg5 Rd7-d6 Nc6-e5 Rd6-d5 Ne5xg6 Rd5xg5 Kh8-g7 Rg5xa5 Ng6-e7 b3-b4 Kg7-f6 Ka3-b3 Ne7-f5 Ne2-f4 Rf8-c8 Ra5-d5 Nf5-e3 Rd5-h5 Ne3-c2 Nf4-e2 Nc2xb4 Kb3xb4 Rc8-b8+ Kb4-c4 Rb8-c8+ Kc4-d5
Here's the complete line appended to the PGN for easy view:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. f3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nb6 6. Nc3 Bg7 7. Be3 O-O 8. Qd2 Be6 9. d5 Bc8 10. h4 c6 11. Bh6 Qd6 12. O-O-O Bxh6 13. Qxh6 Qf6 14. g4 e6 15. h5 Qg7 16. hxg6 Qxh6+ 17. Rxh6 fxg6 18. dxe6 Bxe6 19. Nh3 Kg7 20. Rxh7+ Kxh7 21. Ng5+ Kg8 22. Nxe6 Rxf3 23. Nc7 Rf8 24. a4 a5 25. Nxa8 Nxa8 26. e5 Nc7 27. e6 Kg7 28. Bc4 Rf4 29. b3 Rf3 30. Kb2 Rf2+ 31. Ka3 Rf3 32. Ne2 Rf2 33. e7 b5 34. axb5 cxb5 35. e8=R Nxe8 36. Bxb5 Nf6 37. g5 Nh7 38. Rd8 Rf8 39. Be8 Nc6 40. Rd7+ Kh8 41. Bxg6 Nxg5 42. Rd6 Ne5 43. Rd5 Nxg6 44. Rxg5 Kg7 45. Rxa5 Ne7 46. b4 Kf6 47. Kb3 Nf5 48. Nf4 Rc8 49. Rd5 Ne3 50. Rh5 Nc2 51. Ne2 Nxb4 52. Kxb4 Rb8+ 53. Kc4 Rc8+ 54. Kd5
|Aug-04-16|| ||PawnSac: < YouRang: Here's a message for your enjoyment, long distance, all the way from Swedes in space. >|
The worst music video ever
Hey! Who's the guy with the blonde pixey wig?! Great video! < NOT! > lmbo
by the way...
<YouRang: my earlier analysis was based on assumption -- my conclusion that there was no difference was a bit of an overstatement. >
Nevertheless, your contribution was very worthwhile as it covers what we would have to analyze OTB in a real game, so regardless of some other comments, your post is appreciated (as usual). Keep up the good work!
|Aug-04-16|| ||YouRang: <PawnSac><The worst music video ever >|
Quite so. Apologies for omitting the required message: <Warning: This video contains scenes of Swedes attempting to dance.>
Did you like how it ended with a blatant rip-off of "Grease"? :-D
|Aug-08-16|| ||PawnSac: LOL yea pretty dorky!|
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