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Team White vs Team Black
"Blood on the Trax" (game of the day May-25-2018)
Chessgames Thematic Challenge (2017),, rd 2, Nov-01
Italian Game: Two Knights Defense. Traxler Counterattack Bishop sac line (C57)  ·  1-0



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Kibitzer's Corner
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Nov-21-18  centralfiles: <Kwid> I'm afraid we might just have to agree to disagree with <AK> here. We don't seem to be making much progress convincing him of the merits of 19...Rf6.

Did you ever get a chance to do a deep analysis of 9...h6!? I haven't spent much time on it but I'm not convinced of its merits at this point.

Also I never quite did get over 8...Bb6 9.a4 a6 Which i still think is probably adequate for black and much more "fun" <some aggressive double edged lines> than 8...Bxb4 though you never agreed with me on that one. You supplied positions where white was winning but i found black avoids those positions with best play.

All this is a bit silly though I was replying to the variations you posted as reasons to avoid 8...Bb6 and simply did not realize the strength of 8.b5! which might be just as hard for black as game continuation I.e.

<Random Visitor> <6...Rf8 7.0-0 Qe8 8.b4>

<52/63 +1.09 8. ... Bb6 9.b5 Na5 10.Be2 d6 11.Nc3 Bd4 12.Nf3 Bxc3 13.dxc3 b6 14.Nd2 Kf7 15.Nb3 Nb7 16.Bd3 Kg8 17.a4 Bg4 18.f3 Bd7>

Nov-21-18  kwid: Yes h6 was a must for us.
<Since we have no h6 voters but me I have to emphasis that moving our bishop twice just gives the game away. I am not implying that we could win against a sound move order which we should expect with RV's lines as a guidance.

But with h6! and not Ba5? or Bc5? we will have a fighting chance to survive and deny white for being credited to come up with the Traxler refutation line.>

Premium Chessgames Member
  diceman: <<AK>

<Probably because no one seems to have anywhere near the fervor in favor of 19...h6 leading to a draw that you and <kwid> (and possibly others) feel that 19...Rf6 leads to a draw.>

You sure got that right.
When I first proposed 19...h6
I said I thought it lost.
(not exactly a winning endorsement)

kwid and centralfiles seem to want to rewrite history.

They also don't take into account,
the real world and the psychology involved.

(I probably would have been a fan of
19...Rf6 had kwid not been on my team,
with him, I wanted to run from it.)

How ironic?
kwid's the reason 19...h6 happened,
kwid's the reason it lost so effortlessly.
(kwid was a big fan of 24...Rxe6,
our guaranteed draw)

(the real moment we were done)

You see part of the problem with move
...19 is you have some responsibility
what you play after it.

19...h6 was never in the mix of a better move or great move.

The only real questions are:

1 Does 19... Rf6 draw?
2 Is there a better move?

...and even if found to be true, it
has no relation to what we actually knew at the time, or who would have been convinced to vote for the best moves.

What we saw wasn't a failure of chess moves, but a failure of psychology.

19...Rf6 draws?
Too bad it never happened.

Premium Chessgames Member
  diceman: By the way, there is a poster named:


If you look at the 1972 Fischer/Spassky match. He's done excellent work on many games with new computer analysis.

He seems to be a less verbose/better computer/ version of Ayler.

(Wow, you win on both sides of the equation :) )

Maybe he can be recruited for some testing?

I am always willing to give other people projects!

Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: Sorry guys, I check this page from time to time but without my computer or my data handy (and limited time), I don't have much to add at this point.

But, for <diceman>, as far as <Charles Sullivan> being a less verbose/better computer/version of me, none of them are too hard to accomplish. :-(

Nov-24-18  centralfiles: <Diceman>
<kwid and centralfiles seem to want to rewrite history.>

Am i too brazen If i can ask you to point to a single instance of something i said that could be seen as rewriting history?

I never took any part in any kind of blame game I did not vote for 19...Rf6 myself, nor do i profess to see its merits without the benefit of millions of silicon transistors.

I am simply maintaining that post game it appears pretty clear that 19...Rf6 draws from a theoretical standpoint. I am happy to analyze other plausible alternatives as well.

I would rather not have to point out some of the more blatantly erroneous posts disparaging <Kwid>s lines that were written with shallow engine analysis and were never recanted.

Nov-25-18  centralfiles: <Kwid><all> How many of you would be willing to take on the white/black sides of the Frankenstein/Dracula variation in the Vienna? Blacks results in practice in high level correspondence play have been pretty good I think, with several fine games by Timmerman. Yet theoretically many still insist white is better. So why not have a world game to see if white can get a healthy advantage or is he destined to suffer through an anaconda's grasp just to salvage the half point. It would be nice to see a fine example of how to play the Frankenstein as white.
Nov-30-18  Damenlaeuferbauer: <centralfiles> As a 1.e4,e5 player with the black pieces, I am always ready to take the black side in the Frankenstein/Dracula variation of the Vienna game in correspondence chess. I think theoretically the chances are almost equal. I am eagier to play a Team White vs. Team Black game on Chessgames or a correspondence game against you! Your / Team White's turn!
Dec-02-18  centralfiles: <Damenlaeuferbauer> I wont be strong enough to have meaningful correspondence game on my own :(
Dec-04-18  kwid: <centralfiles:> could I be of any help to you? from what position would we start? it could be of interest to the chess community if we could discover new grounds in this Frankenstein Dracula opening variation. if this site is inappropriate and chessgame not interested to open an other forum for it why not use your own site for it?
Dec-04-18  centralfiles: <Kwid>
If we could organize another team game i think it would be much more interesting than the Traxler variation game. Unfortunately Daniel is no longer with us so who knows when chessgames will be able to organize another team game.

If we had two private pages each which can be made to be accessible only to members of one team, then we can set up unofficial game ourselves.

However in absence of such pages it won't be possible to prevent teams from seeing each other's analysis.

Any suggestions?

Starting position should probably be here:

click for larger view

Dec-05-18  Tiggler: <kwid> <To close out the discussion if Rf6 holds I searched in support of the white side and could not come up with any winning lines.>

If a member of team white might be permitted to comment on a thread that has produced scores of pages of commentary, mostly about the mythic (unplayed) 19.. Rf6, I would observe that the players of team white have evidently gone away content, but that frustrated team black players continue to fight the good fight. No aspersion on the respective team members: if the result had been a draw no doubt team white members would be the ones here battling over what went wrong!

Under the circumstances, including psychological ones, I don't think <kwid> searching in support of the white side is a substitute for actual team white members doing so, notwithstanding the respect in which <kwid> was known to be universally held by every team white member who is acquainted with him.

Dec-05-18  Tiggler: <diceman: By the way, there is a poster named:


If you look at the 1972 Fischer/Spassky match. He's done excellent work on many games with new computer analysis.>

I'd like to follow <diceman> in urging people here to take a look at this poster's exemplary work.

Here is a link to the point in one particular game of the match mentioned where his analysis begins: Fischer vs Spassky, 1972 (kibitz #292),

and this is a later post in which he responds to my request for information about his methods and hardware: Fischer vs Spassky, 1972 (kibitz #303)

A few lines further down is my comment on what he told us. It is short enough to repost here:

<Tiggler: <CS> I appreciate your detailed answer. You should not be even <almost> embarrassed to have spent so long. I would be amazed if your, seemingly comprehensive, analysis in some cases had required less. I know you could not have done it so fast with any current engine without your own skill in forward and backward sliding, as you briefly indicated.

Do you play correspondence chess? I would not want to take you on in that arena!>

Premium Chessgames Member
  Messiah: Would be nice to have another voting game.
Apr-30-19  centralfiles: <kwid> Do you still visit this page? I had an update about the analysis you left on my forum a few months back. I'm pretty confident i found improvements for white while not winning outright still definitely give the first player a real plus. My forum is down i reposted your analysis in User FSR's forum. User: FSR
Premium Chessgames Member
  GrahamClayton: Are there any plans to have another thematic challenge game?
Premium Chessgames Member
  Messiah: A Fischer Random Chess challenge would be lovely.
Premium Chessgames Member
  hoodrobin: <Messiah: Would be nice to have another voting game.> I support that. Standard Chess and No Comp, please!
Premium Chessgames Member
  Messiah: Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee- eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, organize a new game.
Oct-28-21  Slowtimecontrol: 21.Nbc7 wow
Oct-28-21  Slowtimecontrol: 19...Rf6 is losing too
Premium Chessgames Member
  Messiah: U gotta organize another one <>.
Feb-10-23  Chesschronicle22: I agree with Messiah
Feb-10-23  dehanne: Black is not okay.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Check It Out: A fun game.
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