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Magnus Carlsen vs Hans Moke Niemann
"Where There's Moke, There's Fire" (game of the day Sep-07-2022)
Sinquefield Cup (2022), Saint Louis, MO USA, rd 3, Sep-04
Nimzo-Indian Defense: Romanishin Variation (E20)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 9 OF 9 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-27-22  Chessius the Messius: Let's assume Niemann cheated, then my question is obvious, I suppose: does Carlsen only lose when his opponents have been cheating?

I think this is a very serious consideration; just because Mr. Carlsen does not lose too many classical games OTB, especially with Black.

Questions, questions .. but yet no significant answers in this case.

Sep-28-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  Williebob: (The Prince of Turbingen, standing up from the card table):
"Chevalier... Though I cannot say how, I believe you have cheated me."

(Chevalier de Balibari, standing up):
"I deny Your Grace's accusation, and beg you to say how you have been cheated."

(The Prince):
"I don't know. But I believe I have been."

Carlsen - Niemann Classical Grudge Match, as an undercard to the coming WCC! They can play in a bunker with closed circuit TV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpE...
Sep-30-22  DanLanglois: Magnus has not published analysis of the game.

I don't figure this game as being 'he's a super genius or he's cheating' kind of stuff. We don't have Tal-level tactics here, for example. Nor do we even have Hans pouncing on smallish mistakes, playing "up to his opponents level". The game is decided by a significantly bad move from Magnus, not his first or last bad move in the game (28. g4??, is the star move).

To summarize the thread a bit:

1. The question of opening prep. Hans pulled 11...e5 out, apparently a novelty, and as quick as 14 moves, we look at an endgame where White has no advantage.

2. I gloss over 13...Be6, cute, as Black leaves his queen en pris, preferring to instead attack White's queen with this developing move. This can happen when you have your queen in the center on an open board.

Let's set this up by showing White move from this position after the first twelve moves:


click for larger view

White leaves his bishop under attack, and threatens Black's queen with 13. Rfd1:


click for larger view

Black pulls an interesting reply, leaving his queen en pris, 13...Be6!?


click for larger view

I am not remotely insisting that Magnus didn't 'see' it, though I did ponder a claim that supposedly, Magnus thought for 15 minutes when the move was made. I figure that c'mon, Magnus would not be blindsided by a simple tactic. Indeed, the upshot is only that we get a queen exchange, going into the endgame.

2. We know that Hans claimed post-game that this endgame was in his book, which fact he called 'almost miraculous'. Perhaps he was only a bit more confident and familiar with the elements of the position going in. But things do quickly become difficult now, for Magnus.

3. Magnus drifts with 17. Kf1 and 18. Ke1, compare the move in between from Black which is ...17...Rd8, taking the open file.

Here is the position *before* 17. Kf1 Rd8 18. Ke1:


click for larger view

Here is the position *after* 17. Kf1 Rd8 18. Ke1, with Black to move:


click for larger view

The pace is slow, I depend on my Stockfish to supplement my b-player intuition, but okay, White soon finds he is down a pawn. Let's see: it's an endgame. Early, it's even material. Then, White goes down a pawn. Then..

5. Magnus quite catastrophically hangs another pawn out to dry, game over. This last phase begins when Hans had a win after White's 28. g4??, seems the losing move, especially in the more convincing analysis lines, as opposed to the actual game. One may note the shakier line Hans chose to finish him. But Magnus also, was not done making inferior moves. I figure these are the highlights though.

Here is the position, going into the losing move:


click for larger view

White now plays 28. g4??


click for larger view

This seems obviously a risky move, putting the pawn en pris, and of course, those pawns don't move backwards? Think about it, do you want to do that? ;)

Sep-30-22  DanLanglois: <MWYOUNG: What is clear is how badly Magnus Carlsen played. Not how great Hans Niemann played.

27. Re8 Inaccurate e4 28. g4 Mistake (1.3) (28. Rd8 $15) 28... Rc5 $19 O♔ 29. Ba2 Inaccurate Nc4 $2 Missed win (2.0) (29... fxg4 $19) 30. a4 $2 Loses game (3.0) (30. Bxc4 $11)>

I have flagged 28. g4?? as the losing move, a blunder. So I juxtapose that part of your analysis.

I have some difficulty parsing this, some of these items look like moves of course, some items look like comp evals, but that is only my more confident guesses about what I'm looking at here.

<27. Re8 Inaccurate e4 28. g4 Mistake (1.3) (28. Rd8 $15) 28... Rc5 $19 O♔ 29. Ba2 Inaccurate Nc4 $2 Missed win (2.0) (29... fxg4 $19) 30. a4 $2 Loses game (3.0) (30. Bxc4 $11)>

Let me see, like this?

27. Re8? e4 28. g4? (28. Rd8) Rc5 29. Ba2? Nc4? (29...fxg4) 30. a4? (30. Bxc4)

So, you flag 30. a4? as a 'Loses game'. 30. Bxc4 is better. I note that it's hardly an obvious distinction.

White to play 30th move, here:


click for larger view

A few larger points to orient ourselves to the position. Black is up a pawn, and the idea is to both take a second pawn, White's pawn on g4, and also, manage to hold it. Being up two pawns makes a win easy. One remaining decision for White would be whether to exchange the minor pieces, for a rook endgame. Such a rook endgame, if two pawns down, is dead lost. Maybe keep the minor pieces on the board? But if Black's knight is better than White's bishop, then the minor pieces are not helping White by remaining on the board.

When we ponder 30. Bxc4 here, this is a motif -- White can exchange these minor pieces. Then, if Black consolidates, then White has that hopeless scenario, of being in a rook endgame, two pawns down. I noted that the preference for 30. Bxc4 is not 'obvious', but I have no opinion about the deep truth of the matter, unless I get it from my Stockfish. At depth 38, I see 30. a4 being contemplated as -1.71, while 30. Bxc4 is currently -1.83. There doesn't seem to be much hope either way, though Stockfish currently likes best 30. Re7, for +1.36.

Sep-30-22  DanLanglois: I'll repeat my notion that 28. g4?? is White's losing move, but for this post I'll just roll back to consider one more item, I'm looking at 29... fxg4. You label this as much better indeed, than the game line of 'Inaccurate' 29...Nc4, such that this is a 'Missed Win'.

The motif here is that Black gets that g4 pawn, making him two pawns up. In all these lines, that happens with ...fxg4. Black's goals are to be two pawns up and remain two pawns up, such that White has no ideas left, except maybe to exchange off the minor pieces, a terrible idea when you are down two pawns.

So okay, Black to move, 29th move, here:


click for larger view

I do not think it 'obvious' that 29...fxg4 is superior to some other move, given that this only means continuing to delay ...fxg4. Labeling a 'Missed win' here, seems difficult to fathom. Even that 29...fxg4 is clearly best, is difficult for me to fathom. Anyways, there aren't a lot of ideas to throw around. Black has his rook, and his knight, and is contemplating an eventual ...fxg4. Prima facie, I note that the knight being on the rim, 29...Nc4 does have its points. It is another inevitable move in the position. The knight 'belongs' on c4. But also, if the White king is driven to Kd2 as can happen in some lines, then Black has ...Nc4+! and the check makes the move 'free', Black gets another move. Alternatively, maybe he forces an exchange of the minor pieces with White playing Bxc4. That exchange is favorable in that Black is already up two pawns (he consolidates up two pawns, and nothing less has been found for Black in these lines).

At 35 ply, my Stockfish is spitting this, just in case we love to do these computer readouts -- it's not like I don't have 'em!:

Stockfish 11 64
(-1.71 (depth 35) 29...Rc2 30.Bd5 Rc5 31.Rd8 fxg4 32.Rd7 Kf6 33.Bxf7 Rc3 34.Bd5 b5 35.Bxe4 Rxa3 36.Rh7 Nc4 37.f3 gxf3 38.Rxh6+ Kg5 39.Rg6+ Kh5 40.Re6 fxe2 41.Kxe2 Re3+ 42.Kf2 Kg5 43.Rg6+ Kf4)

(-1.67 (depth 35) 29...fxg4 30.Re7 Nc4 31.Rxb7 h5 32.a4 h4 33.Rb4 Na3 34.Rxe4 Rc1+ 35.Kd2 Rc2+ 36.Kd3 Rxa2 37.Rxg4+ Kf8 38.Rxh4 Nc2 39.Kc3 Ne1 40.Re4 Kg7 41.h4 f5 42.Re5 Rc2+ 43.Kd4 f4)

(-1.54 (depth 35) 29...Nc4 30.Re7 fxg4 31.Rxb7 h5 32.a4 h4 33.Rb4 Na3 34.Rxe4 Rc1+ 35.Kd2 Rc2+ 36.Kd3 Rxa2 37.Rxg4+ Kf8 38.Rxh4 Nc2 39.Kc3 Ne1 40.Re4 Kg7 41.Kb4 f5 42.Re6 Kf7 43.Re5 Kf6)

(-0.94 (depth 35) 29...Rc1+ 30.Kd2 Ra1 31.Bd5 fxg4 32.Rxe4 f5 33.Rf4 Kf6 34.e4 Ke5 35.Rxf5+ Kd4 36.f3 Rxa3 37.fxg4 Rh3 38.Ke2 b5 39.Rf6 Nc4 40.Rxa6 Ne5 41.Kf2 Nxg4+ 42.Kg2 Rd3 43.Rd6 Kc3)

Sep-30-22  DanLanglois: Note a quibble, in these lines that I just posted, as we settle the controversy about which line is better for Black:

(-1.67 (depth 35) 29...fxg4 30.Re7 Nc4 31.Rxb7 h5 32.a4 h4 33.Rb4 Na3 34.Rxe4 Rc1+ 35.Kd2 Rc2+ 36.Kd3 Rxa2 37.Rxg4+ Kf8 38.Rxh4 Nc2 39.Kc3 Ne1 40.Re4 Kg7 41.h4 f5 42.Re5 Rc2+ 43.Kd4 f4)

(-1.54 (depth 35) 29...Nc4 30.Re7 fxg4 31.Rxb7 h5 32.a4 h4 33.Rb4 Na3 34.Rxe4 Rc1+ 35.Kd2 Rc2+ 36.Kd3 Rxa2 37.Rxg4+ Kf8 38.Rxh4 Nc2 39.Kc3 Ne1 40.Re4 Kg7 41.Kb4 f5 42.Re6 Kf7 43.Re5 Kf6)

They're transposing so as to be identical, up to the 41st move! Same thing!? ;)

Sep-30-22  nok: Came for the drama,

Stayed for Dan's analysis.

/jk

Oct-01-22  ZoboBear 000000001: RE: Cheat detection...

https://youtu.be/tDsLu3ISqJQ?t=559 (worth rewinding too!)

"That's how people like YOU think your opponent's cheating"

Again, Ben comes up with a good vid (and, just coincidentially, supports the stuff I've been saying here the last couple of days).

Oct-01-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: <"BIG Stuff" Is Coming> Naka reads out the latest FIDE and chess.com news which fits the topic perfectly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn6... (~17m:04s) ENJOY!
Oct-01-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: <This Is Going To Break Chess> Hikaru reacts to Jonda's video on how easy it is to create a chess cheating device: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN-... (~11m:31s)

The (brilliant) game mentionend within Gelfand vs Niemann, 2021

Oct-01-22  aliejin: n life you are decent or not.
At 6.7 years of age, the essential structure
of personality is completely defined.

Nieman has already admitted that he twice engaged in immoral conduct (He had no choice but to recognize it)
We are facing an immoral. It is obvious

But when someone admits something he usually does. to cover other traps -

Software used by experts can identify
the "waves" of absolute precision in a good batch of games and thus detect suspicious behavior

I suppose that in 2 or 3 months this rat will be expelled of the FIDE

Oct-01-22  Petrosianic: <aliejin> <n life you are decent or not. At 6.7 years of age, the essential structure
of personality is completely defined.

Nieman has already admitted that he twice engaged in immoral conduct (He had no choice but to recognize it) We are facing an immoral. It is obvious>

By your own reasoning, so is Carlsen. Though he hasn't admitted to it, he has indisputably broken multiple FIDE Rules in the last month. By your reasoning, to do anything wrong is, in effect, to do everything wrong, so everything Carlsen has done in his whole life is tainted. If he'd throw a game, he might rob a bank or commit a murder, who knows? The sky's the limit with immorals, and the probability so high that no evidence is needed.

Obviously you don't really believe what you're saying, and are inventing a standard that's supposed to apply to one specific case only, but no others. That itself is immoral, so follow the reasoning from there. You seem to have condemned yourself.

Oct-01-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  saffuna: <n life you are decent or not. At 6.7 years of age, the essential structure
of personality is completely defined.>

A lot of people change significantly as adults.

Oct-02-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <aliejin> would, however, defend Alekhine to the death and tell us all that the Nazi devils made him write those pieces for Pariser Zeitung--nothing at all to do with that personality which was 'defined' at 6.7 years.
Oct-02-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  boz: Absolutely, people can change in profound ways. I've seen it and experienced it myself. Sometimes it's a change for the better. Sometimes it's a change for the worse.
Oct-02-22  TheBish: <OrangeTulip: In fact there�s one Columbo episode with a chess genius as the �gardner�>

Season 2, episode 7, titled "The Most Dangerous Match", aired on March 4, 1973, not too long after Bobby Fischer was crowned world champion. I remember seeing it many years ago in syndication, but don't remember anyone (especially the chess players) being a "gardner" or even a gardener. (I did a search of the second link which probably would have mentioned it, since it's most likely the wordiest write-up on this episode; or were you talking about another episode where the gardener is a chess player?)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt006990...

https://columbophile.com/2017/06/16...

Oct-02-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  boz: <thebish> I remember that episode. Yes, at the peak of the Fischer boom. Columbo out smarted the chess genius. I can only recall the scene where they are seated in a diner at a table with a checkered tablecloth and the chess master was making his point by moving the the salt and pepper shakers over the table like chess pieces.
Oct-02-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  saffuna: This was the key game in that episode: W Wolthuis vs C H Alexander, 1946
Oct-02-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  boz: Didn't know that. Great stuff <saffuna>!
Oct-02-22  Chessius the Messius: Columbo - Most Dangerous Match

https://youtu.be/YY1UnKY9RSM

Oct-02-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: One of the weaker episodes of the older series. Peter Leko revealed that he'd been watching them during one of his commentary stints.
Oct-02-22  aliejin: "Obviously you don't really believe what you're saying, and are inventing a standard that's supposed to apply to one specific case only, but no others. That itself is immoral, so follow the reasoning from there. You seem to have condemned yourself."

All this paragraph is pure subjectivity and the most stupid Stupid is also drawing definitive conclusions
Anyway, Stupid must be the one who writes it

We must wait. In a short time all this matter will be cleared up Niema's career is over

Oct-02-22  DanLanglois: The big question, whether the world champion has hard evidence that shows Niemann has cheated, -- nope.
Oct-03-22  Petrosianic: <aliejin: All this paragraph is pure subjectivity and the most stupid Stupid is also drawing definitive conclusions Anyway, Stupid must be the one who writes it>

So your rebuttal is... nothing. Except that you don't like what was said. Unfortunately, no rebuttal at all doesn't get you off the hook. You are condemned by your own argument, and don't dispute it. Oh, but feel free to get as mad as you want.

Oct-03-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <Stupid is also drawing definitive conclusions [...] Niema's career is over>
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