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Apr-19-23
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi Stone FD.
The last link (thanks) when Nakamura mentioned his miscalculation v Karjakin I recalled writing about it somewhere. It was here! Karjakin vs Nakamura, 2016 (kibitz #26) Not quite in the same class as Ding's, Nakamura's was a sting in the tail and he played it out. But he was was asked for an example from one of his own games and sportingly came up with this this one. It appears it still smarts after 7 years. It will still will smart after 50 years, trust me on this Hikaru, in bed just before you nod off a position will float into your mind. You will groan as you jack knife your knees up to your chest. You are now wide awake! And it's always the same three or four losses. Never a win. Here is a visitor. (maybe once or twice a year - not every night, that would drive me insane.) ? Nicholson - Me, Germany 1973. A win or a draw and I'm a tournament winner either outright or shared.  click for larger viewI cannot play 34...Qxg3 35.Rd8 mate. I saw that and nowhere near time trouble I played 34...a5 (because 35.Rd8 is not a mate) 35.Qe1+ 1-0 and sleepless nights. That was 51 years ago and a very strong 'I'm giving up chess' moment. Luckily for everyone here this never happened! But it was close. |
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Apr-19-23 | | SChesshevsky: <I'm pretty sure Nepo knew with some degree of certainty that Ding would not retreat the R to d5> Experienced players know, either consciously or instinctively, that the chances for such a retreat are fairly low. Unless the whole idea for the advance was some sort of instigation to weaken the opponents position. When worse and attempting counter play, a retreat like that kind of defeats the purpose of counter play. When better, it generally just wastes a tempo and may change a good position to one just slightly better or even equal. Then there's the emotional/psychological factor in admitting to your opponent and accepting yourself that you failed miserably in your calculation. And be willing to start again from scratch to find a new plan. So a natural continuation is to look for a way to somehow justify the original plan. Of course, computers don't have such issues and they will readily retreat. But doesn't mean human retreat is impossible, so still likely has to be considered in calculations. In this specific game, given the time and what he's been through before. Might make a Ding retreat even less likely. |
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Apr-19-23 | | paavoh: < FSR: We forget the insane pressure that the players are under in world championship matches.... People don't talk about stress in chess very much, but it's a huge part of the game... I have trouble dealing with it even in infinitely less important games, e.g. my league match the other night.> Spot on!! My experiences are the same, regardless of the type of sport as long as it is of competitive kind (chess, badminton, floor ball, goaltending in hockey...) when the stakes are ranking points, team record etc. |
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Apr-19-23
 | | Teyss: <LRLeighton: I'm a little surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of a major reason why Ding has had so many losses -- he has been in bad to outright terrible time trouble almost every game> It was mentioned a few times of which here briefly Nepomniachtchi - Ding World Championship Match (2023) (kibitz #860). Don't have time to look at other occurrences, they would be in the game threads. You're right, maybe Ding is not used not to have increments before move 61. Don't know why they imposed that rule, just e.g. 10 seconds per move wouldn't make the games much longer and would avoid scrambles. |
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Apr-19-23
 | | Teyss: <SChesshevsky: Appears Ding didn't make 31...h4 because he thought he was better or equal. Think it was more a desperate attempt to equalize by picking up the h pawn or forcing some sort of advantageous exchange.> Probably the idea was to expose h2 hence the following move Rd2. So either he overvalued his position, either he tried to muddy waters. The engine recommends 32...Be5 with the same threat and also controlling the dark squares. Maybe he would have found it if he hadn't been in time trouble. |
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Apr-19-23
 | | perfidious: <LRLeighton: I'm a little surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of a major reason why Ding has had so many losses -- he has been in bad to outright terrible time trouble almost every game> In my opinion, this is putting the cart before the horse; while we old-timers were well used to playing without increment and modern players either were forced to adapt, or began playing later, thus never did so, one characteristic of top practitioners in any discipline is adapting to changed circumstances and imposing their will on them, as necessary. |
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Apr-19-23 | | SChesshevsky: <Teyss: Probably the idea was to expose h2 hence the following move Rd2.> Yes, if that was the plan white Re2 obviously blocks it. What's the continuation of the black idea? |
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Apr-19-23 | | stone free or die: <Sally> that one's an ouch! for sure. I would categorize it as chess blindness, and, as you said, not time trouble. Naka's as a horizon event, a kind of blindness. He may have some time pressure, but he just fell in love with the tactic, and let his guard down. Ding's was definitely a time trouble problem.
People keep talking about not having the increment killed Ding. But did it? I know it's a hypothetical, but suppose the 30-sec increment kicked in at move 30 (keeping the tc at 40). Would having those extra few minutes have saved him? Both players were asked about their styles yesterday, and neither said they had one. But I noticed Ding had several opportunities to exchange either colored bishop during the game, and decided not to do so. Isn't keeping the pieces on the board to complicate play a style of some kind? . |
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Apr-19-23
 | | Teyss: <SChesshevsky> TBH I didn't understand Ding's plan, which is easy to to say sitting comfortably with a drink and an engine at hand. Could be he mainly wanted to get closer to time control and chose easy threats: attack g3, attack h2, attack Q, check, attack Re2. 5 moves closer to TC but his position deteriorated as much and he couldn't see it beforehand under time pressure. |
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Apr-19-23
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi Teyss,
<You're right, maybe Ding is not used not to have increments before move 61.> They had the same time controls in the candidates - Ding did OK there. And Ding was cool enough to go for that 'Genius finish' - Giri, in game 6. 'Time trouble is not an excuse for losing a game' Alekhine.
The clock is your 17th piece. Ding mishandled it and got himself all wound up. Hi Stone.
That blunder was me I can figure out my thought process from even back then in 1973 because I still play like now.  click for larger viewI saw the big threat (Rd8 so Qxg3 is not on) and having spotted it relaxed then I saw my trick. Rxh2+ and Qc2+ and Qxd1. So I do what I do. I knock the ball back to my opponent (1...a5) hoping he will move his Queen (which he did!!) so as to leave my cheapo trick on. It's all based on the fact I cannot punish a blunder unless my opponent blunders and to that he must have the move. So I knock the ball back over the net and hope he scuffs it. Bronstein said the most powerful thing in chess is having the move. I agree but sometimes it's the worse thing you can have, because without having the move you cannot blunder. I probably learned from that game as I cannot recall many bad misses like that, a Queen+ and picking up a loose bit. But if I search my games DB (always a miserable experience :)) I'll probably find a few - that one stuck. |
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Apr-19-23
 | | Teyss: Hi Geoff,
Right about the Candidates, forgot. Here there is extra pressure and an opponent who tends to play fast, leaving less time for Ding to think. <The clock is your 17th piece.> Don't know if it's from you but it's a good quote regardless. |
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Apr-19-23 | | fabelhaft: Ding wasn’t really in some sort of bad time trouble. He had close to ten minutes left after 30 moves, and it wasn’t an extremely complicated position for these players. He just froze. If it had been a blitz game where he had two minutes left he would probably have finished the game without losing nine times out of ten. The pressure just got to him. |
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Apr-19-23 | | fabelhaft: Nepo in general seems to be more optimistic than Ding with regards to evaluating their own chances, but in this game he was at least evaluating better. He said he couldn’t find any plan and was slightly worse, while Ding seemed to think he was close to losing and seems to have been unable to make an objective assessment and kind of panicked. |
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Apr-19-23
 | | Teyss: <fabelhaft> Re. your first post, yes it's the pressure and the freeze which lead to time scramble. For the record he had 44 seconds left from move 33 onwards, that's 5.5 seconds by move to reach TC. It's hard to blitz when the opponent has 11.5 minutes and is pacing the room like a shark around its prey. Re. the second, interesting view about optimism and pessimism. |
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Apr-19-23 | | Petrosianic: <Teyss> <The clock is your 17th piece.> <Don't know if it's from you but it's a good quote regardless.> That used to be true, but the increment is like a set of training wheels for the time control, which relieve a player of much of the need to manage his time efficiently. If you want to make the games more exciting, and maybe reduce draws a little, I'd get rid of the increments, and go back to an older style time control, like 40 moves in 2 hours, and no increment. It's annoying that none of the major servers allow you to play that way. You can either play with an increment or play sudden death, but no option to play with a time control to meet. 30/30 used to be such a popular time control that there was a US 30/30 Open. It was totally killed when G/30 replaced it. |
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Apr-20-23 | | Allderdice83: I hate sudden death, probably because I'm always on the losing side of it when it matters. I've lost games when I just couldn't checkmate someone in time, won with 2.2 seconds left, and once ran out of time but my opponent let me trade off their last pawn, so it ended in a draw. I like to think they did it intentionally, to be a good sport, realizing that I'd outplayed them and didn't deserve to lose. Although one could argue that I did, since after all, the rules are the rules. But sudden death means you can play for a totally drawn position and then it becomes a race to see who can move quickest without playing a losing blunder. Not chess, IMO. |
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Apr-20-23 | | Petrosianic: <Allderdice83>: <I hate sudden death, probably because I'm always on the losing side of it when it matters. I've lost games when I just couldn't checkmate someone in time, won with 2.2 seconds left, and once ran out of time but my opponent let me trade off their last pawn, so it ended in a draw. I like to think they did it intentionally, to be a good sport, realizing that I'd outplayed them and didn't deserve to lose.> Sudden Death is a different animal than old style time controls. You have to manage your time. For example, if you're playing 30/30, you have an average of 1 minute per move. So, if it's move 15 and you've used 20 minutes, you have to pick it up a little. Good time managers do that. Bad ones think "I'll spend more time now and reach a position where it's easy to find moves, and then make the last few to reach the time control in a hurry." It doesn't always work out that way. If you're a Reshevsky or a Benko and find yourself constantly scrambling to make those last couple of moves, then you're not a good time manager. With Sudden Death, there is no time control to reach or clear way to budget your time, without knowing how long the game will last. |
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Apr-20-23 | | Petrosianic: <Allderdice83>: <once ran out of time but my opponent let me trade off their last pawn, so it ended in a draw. I like to think they did it intentionally, to be a good sport,> I don't think that is good sportsmanship, at least not in the sense that it's bad sportsmanship not to to it. It's Charity, pure and simple. That's not bad necessarily, but let's label it correctly. It's silly to play Blitz Sudden Death and then complain that time is a factor in the outcome of the game. But I've actually had people get upset at me in 1 minute Bullet games (!) for using the clock. We'd reach a position where the ending was probably drawn, but he had 10 seconds to my 20, and he thought he deserved a draw. I never ask for draws when the shoe is on the other foot precisely because I would be asking for charity, and don't want to put the other guy on the spot, where he'll feel bad if he says no. Mind you, I've won games like that too. I remember once I had 0.1 seconds left to the other guy's 8 seconds. But I made 12 consecutive pre-moves, and the other guy lost on time. Bottom Line is if you have a problem with games being decided by the clock, you shouldn't be playing Sudden Death at all, much less Bullet. |
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Apr-21-23 | | Opto007: Hi Sally Simpson .
Looking at your 1973 loss that you shared, I was trying to figure out why you resigned but then I understood that the winning move was not 35.Qe1+ but rather Qe8 + ! |
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Apr-22-23
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi Opto007,
Yes Qe8+. But in my nightmares the board is being held upside down by grinning and sniggering goblins blowing trumpets and dancing the hornpipe. |
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Jul-14-23 | | generror: I'm finally going through the games of this match with the help of Stockfish and the recently discovered GM Finegold... and boy, this game probably is the best of the match. It may not look too spectacular on first sight, but boy, once Nepo plays <16.Ne5!>, all hell breaks loose. There's myriads of crazy tactical variations that require at 10 moves or more to compute correctly, and there's all kinds of weirdness going on. It's amazing both players managed to keep the game even, it's even more amazing that Ding found the only non-losing move <22...Nxf4!!>. Nepo still would have gotten a slight edge with <23.Rxf4! Nxe5 24.Bxg6!!>, but who on Earth would find that move, or even consider it a candidate? So Ding got a slight advantage after <29...h5> and then went on to royally mess it up after he literally imploded on the 31st move, spending five of his remaining six minutes on <32...Rd2?> and having to blitz his remaining moves. What's not amazing is that both players got in time trouble. If you're playing for the World Championship and you get *this* position on the board, that's only natural. Nepo was better off, being a natural fast player. If Ding would have been more experienced, he wouldn't have tried to force a win, but play solid little moves. But chess players aren't engines, and the blunders also are a part of what makes this game so great to me. What *is* amazing is that Ding managed to recover from this game. But it was during the following draws that I realized that this boy has nerves of steel -- much better nerves than Nepo actually, and with each game I realized that he had real chances to win this thing. Anyways, great game, I heartily recommend going through it with an engine to the various alternatives and the crazy lines they're leading to. |
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Jul-14-23 | | generror: BTW it would be nice if <chessgames.com> had a way to record the clock with the moves. I know it's possible in PGN, and I think it's an important information that helps understanding what really went on during the game. Just sayin'. |
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Nov-04-24
 | | MarcusBierce: < Experienced players know, either consciously or instinctively, that the chances for such a retreat are fairly low.> Karpov was one player who was relatively immune to such maneuvers |
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Nov-04-24
 | | perfidious: The most famous retrograde manoeuvre of 'em all from le grand maitre: Karpov vs Spassky, 1974 |
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Nov-04-24
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi Perfidious,
<The most famous retrograde manoeuvre of 'em all...> And don't we know it! Bill Hartston started it in a BCM in 1974 giving 24.Nb1 an ! Since then it has cropped up everywhere. Everyone uses that position and 24.Nb1! (or !!) to get across a point. I'm fed up seeing it. I found loads examples of it in different books. So many in fact it is a move you can see from the Moon. |
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