Apr-06-24 | | whiteshark: What a game! |
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Apr-06-24 | | thegoodanarchist: A Praggmatic opening for Black. |
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Apr-06-24
 | | DaltriDiluvi: This game was a good advertisement for the (deferred) Schliemann defense. It makes me wonder why this opening is played so rarely. |
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Apr-07-24 | | sudoplatov: Book suggests 8.Qxd4 rather than 8.Nxd4. |
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Apr-07-24
 | | FSR: The Schliemann Deferred was a gutsy choice by Pragg and it paid off handsomely. It's rarely seen and has a very dubious reputation. Chessgames' database has 2,892 games with the regular Schliemann Opening Explorer and only 270, less than a tenth of that, with the Schliemann Deferred. Opening Explorer. FWIW, in CG's database, White surprisingly scores worse against the Schliemann Deferred (55.9%) than against the Schliemann (57.3%). The Schliemann Deferred has previously been seen in a few games between prominent players, e.g. Karpov vs Korchnoi, 1974 (1/2-1/2, 51) and Spassky vs S Polgar, 1995 (1/2-1/2, 19). To answer <DaltriDiluvi>'s question, the Schliemann Deferred is rarely seen precisely because 5.d4! exd4 6.e5, as in this game, is considered very strong. Stockfish 16, depth 56 assesses that position as +0.67. Not a good time for Black, though he might still hold with perfect play. ChessBase's correspondence database shows that White scores 68.5% in 269 games from that position. The regular Schliemann (the immediate 3...f5!?) is considered sounder precisely because 4.d4!?, the thematic response to Black's flank adventure, loses material to 4...fxe4 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.dxe5 c6! White's main lines against the regular Schliemann are 4.Nc3 and 4.d3. Stockfish 16, depth 77 assesses 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O as +0.31. SF 16, depth 75 gives the alternative 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6! 6.Qe2 d5 as +0.33. Both comfortably within the drawing margin. The Schliemann Deferred is a worse opening, but obscure, and Pragg gambled that Vidit wasn't prepared for it. That seems to have been the case. So if the Schliemann Deferred is so good for White, why did Vidit lose? Consistent with <sudoplatov>'s comment, Stockfish 16 considers 8.Qxd4 better (+0.89) than Vidit's 8.Nxd4 (+0.71). It says that his very next move, 9.Nxf5, was a lemon allowing Black to equalize with 9...Nxb3 10.axb3 d6!▢ The point is 11.ex6 Qd7!=. In the game continuation, 12.e6 Qc7 led to a sharp but (per the engine) equal position. Jon Ludvig Hammer, commenting on the game, observed that the game could go either way depending on whether White's advanced pawn turns out to be strong or weak. Black has the long-term advantage of the bishop pair. 13.Bg5 threatened Nxg7+!, winning, but SF says that White is already slightly worse. Black should have responded to 17.Qg4?! with 17...O-O-O -0.6. Surprisingly, though, Black's 19...O-O-O? (rather than 19...O-O! -0.4) was now a mistake. Now 20.Nd5! would suddenly have hard for Black to handle, e.g. 20...Nxd5 21.e7+! Rd7 22.cxd5 h5! (to win the e-pawn) 23.Qxg6 Rxe7 24.Rfe1! Rd7 25.Nc4 +0.6. Instead, Black had a big advantage after 20.h4? White last chance was 32.Nxb7! Qxb7 33.Rb4! with only a small disadvantage (-0.3). Instead, 32.b4? g5! (32...Ba8! was perhaps even better), Black was taking over. |
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Apr-07-24
 | | FSR: To be clear, the above is not meant as a criticism of Vidit's play. It's always easy for a fish with an engine to demonstrate how "weakly" a GM played. |
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Apr-07-24 | | Everett: Bronstein�s influence, via Korchnoi, lives on Karpov vs Korchnoi, 1974 |
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Apr-07-24 | | Olavi: 6...b5 7.Bb3 Na5 seems to be as good as new, so early... 7...Bb7 has been played a bit. (But that's very new too.) The Norwegian Schliemann Deferred, 4...b5 5.Bb3 Na5 being the Norwegian. |
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Apr-07-24
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi FSR,
<'The regular Schliemann (the immediate 3...f5!?) is considered sounder precisely because 4.d4!?, the thematic response to Black's flank adventure, loses material to 4...fxe4 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.dxe5 c6! '>  click for larger viewThe piece sac 7.Nc3 scores reasonably well OTB. Even I have had a few good wins with it. G Chandler vs B Tauren, 1989 It has good OTB shock value. Against 3...a6 and then 4...f5 my results differed because I never had the piece sac up my sleeve and had to play 'normal' chess for a few moves. 3...f5 is a good weapon v Exchange Lopez players but do not go into it blind, they will have, or should have something v it. (7.Nc3 and the piece sac.) |
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Apr-07-24
 | | Teyss: Hi FSR,
Thanks for this great analysis of the opening and the game. (For future readers there's a small typo in the last sentence: it's 33.Rd4 instead of 33.Rb4.) Of course I don't consider it as criticism of Vidit's play, review is the essence of this site and Chess in general. It still amazes me that top GMs, very well prepared for a high-level tournament, with seconds and engines, can go astray so early in the opening. If 8.Qxd4 is book, why did Vidit play 8.Nxd4_? And then 9.Nxf5_? Did Vidit not know the opening at all? Or was it part of this prep, on which he got out-preped by Pragg? Impressive game by Pragg, inventive, audacious and sharp. Thanks again <FSR>. |
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Apr-07-24
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi Teyss,
<If 8.Qxd4 is book, why did Vidit play 8.Nxd4> Possibly to step out of Pragg's prep. Play an OK move to side step outside the mainline where a T.N. may be lurking. He took 18 minutes deciding on it. Yes FSR post is good, however as FSR says Jon Hammer's assessment "The game could go either way depending on whether White's advanced pawn turns out to be strong or weak. " is of more value than any computer evaluation. If it was too unbalanced for even him to call it then a S.F. evaluation is next to worthless. The position was such that perfect play according to S.F. was never going to happen in a human v human game. And recalling how S.F. was turned inside out and upside down by Alpha it does not understand the concept of counter play. It's idea of perfect play is a long way off what can and often happens when humans play. |
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Apr-07-24 | | fisayo123: Great effort and fearless, energetic chess from Pragg. |
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Apr-07-24 | | Olavi: The lesson to be taken, I think, is that the Black bishops were very strong. White would have to do something with the e6-pawn; which it appears, was possible. But in fact when you get over the initial shock the position looks very much like some old fashioned gambit lines in the Ruy. Look at the games of Planinc... |
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Apr-07-24 | | Rdb: Here is an interesting article about this game https://indianexpress.com/article/s... |
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Apr-07-24 | | Rdb: Part 2
GM surya Shekhar ganguly , who is second of Vidit and in padt has been second to Anand earlier , knew this opening , however , apparently , he did not show it to Vidit. <On Twitter, grandmaster Srinath Narayanan tweeted: “Surya had shown me this variation a few years ago. I wonder if he had shown this variation to Vidit.”> Ibid |
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Apr-07-24 | | Saniyat24: From the commentary that I heard, they said, Schliemann Defense Deferred is a bit better than the immediate f5 after White plays Bb5...! |
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Apr-07-24
 | | perfidious: That would constitute turning decades of master praxis on its head. |
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Apr-08-24
 | | Teyss: Hi Geoff,
Stepping out of a prep to avoid a TN makes sense, but generally only if you have a prep yourself which apparently Vidit didn't: he thought for 18 minutes (thanks for the info) and made suboptimal moves afterwards. In that case it's probably wiser to go by the book which has a big advantage: saving time which you can use when the opponent diverges. Also there's a chance he's bluffing, so calling his bluff right away is better especially on a dubious defence like the Schliemann. Totally agree on your comments of humans & psychology vs computer. Great game of yours above: G Chandler vs B Tauren, 1989 You did everything I never dared to in my playing days: sac a piece in the opening, get your Queen exposed, give away your castling rights, castle by hand on the Qside... and win. |
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May-14-24
 | | FSR: I'm going to play the Schliemann/Jaenisch Gambit in correspondence chess. I'm having Stockfish 16.1 analyze it deeply to figure out exactly how risky it is. (I don't know whether Stockfish 16.1's conclusions will end up being materially different from Stockfish's 16's. My guess is no.) It's taken me a long time to get to depth 63/84. At that point, it says that 4.d3 is +0.44 and 4.Nc3 is +0.36. Very tenable. Main lines are 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 (or 6...d6) 7.Bxc6 bxc6 8.Nxe5 O-O 9.Nc3 (or 9.Bg5) d6 10.Na4 (or 10.Nd3) Bxf2+ 11.Rxf2 dxe5 12.Qxd8 Rxd8 13.Bg5 Rd4 14.Bxf6 Rxa4 15.Bxe5 Rxe4 16.Bxc7 g6 17.h3 Bf5 +0.44 and 4.Nc3 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Qe2 (or 6.Nxf6+) d5 7.Nxf6+ gxf6 8.d4 e4 9.Nh4 (or 9.Ne5) Be6 10.O-O (or 10.Bxc6+) Qd6 (or 10...Qd7) 11.f3 O-O-O 12.c3 f5 13.fxe4 fxe4 14.Qh5 Rg8 15.Nf5 Qd7 +0.36. I only asked Stockfish to analyze the top two lines, since nothing else is nearly as dangerous (4.d4!?, which entails a piece sac, is a distant third). Of course, OTB is a whole other animal. |
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May-14-24
 | | keypusher: <The position was such that perfect play according to S.F. was never going to happen in a human v human game. And recalling how S.F. was turned inside out and upside down by Alpha it does not understand the concept of counter play. > The version of SF that was turned inside out by A0, which I think was SF8, is completely different from current versions. Even six years ago the comment that SF doesn't understand the concept of counterplay was a gross overstatement at minimum, but it's quite false today. Engines are improving all the time, observations from a half-decade ago are obsolete. |
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May-14-24
 | | FSR: The current version of Stockfish is insanely strong. To my understanding it is the strongest chess engine available to the public, with a rating of 3500+. It would probably beat Carlsen 10-0 in a match, just as Carlsen would expect to beat a 2100 player 10-0. |
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May-14-24
 | | perfidious: <Geoff....3...f5 is a good weapon v Exchange Lopez players but do not go into it blind, they will have, or should have something v it. (7.Nc3 and the piece sac.)> In the late 1990s, I played the Schliemann a few times, one of which was against someone who was a devotee of the Exchange and whom I knew would avoid any main line and go in for an insipid byway. |
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May-15-24
 | | FSR: The sad thing about the Schliemann is that if you and your opponent both know what you're doing Black will probably end up in some pawn-down ending with opposite-colored bishops where Black is fighting to draw. Not exactly what you dream of when you play the Schliemann. If you wanted to hold a draw in an ending the Berlin would have been a much more sensible choice. There you might at least have winning chances if White screwed up. |
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May-15-24
 | | perfidious: <FSR>, had one of those in a USCF CC event, but was not obliged to sacrifice the pawn and wound up somehow winning the ending with opposite bishops. |
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Jul-13-24 | | vimun: my highlight in chess, having Pragg play my novelty 10...d6! (its probably been analyzed before but i was first to play it hehe) only bad thing is now more people know about the opening, its less of a surprise weapon ;( |
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