< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 24 OF 24 ·
|Jun-15-19|| ||whiteshark: Probably the most distinguished contemporary German chess historian, Michael Negele, summarized it this way:|
Tarrasch made the high school graduation in 1880 at the Elisabet(h)-Gymnasium in Wroclaw.
Afterwards he studied medicine in Berlin and Halle (Saale), where he passed the state exam with "good" (Easter 1885).
From 1886, he practiced as a doctor in Geroldsgrün in the County Hof.
Marriage in May 1887 in Bamberg as <"Dr."> Siegbert Tarrasch - <the doctorate certificate has not yet been proven. <>>
https://www.schachbund.de/news/lask... (page 12)
|Jun-15-19|| ||ughaibu: <he passed the state exam with "good" (Easter 1885).>|
Local doc then innit.
|Jun-15-19|| ||beatgiant: The question is, was he legally entitled to work as a medical doctor or not? A medical license is not a "doctorate."|
|Jun-15-19|| ||ughaibu: <The question is, was he legally entitled to work as a medical doctor or not?>|
Then what grounds are there for doubt? I understood the issue to be about the entitlement to the term "doctor".
|Jun-15-19|| ||beatgiant: <ughaibu>
In U.S. English at least, the title of "doctor" is used for licensed medical practitioners as well as Ph.D. holders. Perhaps that was not the case for the title of "doktor" in 19th-century Germany.
|Jun-15-19|| ||ughaibu: Beatgiant: sure, I suspect the controversy hinges on an ambiguity.|
|Jun-16-19|| ||keypusher: <whiteshark> <IIRC he also wrote a book on his WC match vs Lasker.>|
I really thought I’d flogged that sufficiently.
<From Google Books, a link to Tarrasch's book on the 1908 world championship. I've translated his notes on the game pages.>
|Jun-16-19|| ||perfidious: While <john b> has made some worthwhile suggestions for rewriting the good doctor's bio, there is one more change to be made: as it stands, the wording above implies that the proposed match was postponed due, perhaps, to some failing on the part of Tarrasch. It has long been known that he was in a serious skating accident that winter.|
|Jun-16-19|| ||beatgiant: <Telemus>
Well, I may be slow, but this is still not at all clear to me.
Is it claimed that Tarrasch did not possess a valid license to work as a medical doctor? Or is it claimed that he did have such license, but that was not enough for use of the "Dr." title in his milieu?
If the latter, is it because he didn't have a Ph.D. degree? Or was it the case that M.D.'s could be called "Dr." but only if they completed a thesis?
|Jun-16-19|| ||Telemus: Sorry, I deleted my last kibitz by mistake! Here is the text again:|
<beatgiant: Perhaps that was not the case for the title of "doktor" in 19th-century Germany.> I described exactly what was missing in Alekhine vs Janowski, 1914 (kibitz #23) .
You asked for a pointer to the discussion. I assume it started with Kamm's biography.
(Negele's statement to the missing doctoral certificate is correct, a little imprecise and above all discussion-avoiding.)
<keypusher> Why the link to my profile?
<perfidious> The bio can be improved in many ways.
The sentence <At 15, ...> is unhappily formulated. Strictly speaking it starts with an inaccurancy (Tarrasch learned chess before; at the age of 15 he learned about chess books). But what I don't like is that the statement on his first steps in chess is combined with the series of tournament wins that happened when he was already 27-30 years old.
The sentence <After Tarrasch's compatriot Emanuel Lasker won the World Championship, the two agreed to terms for a match to take place in autumn of 1904, ...> is unlucky, too, because - as you know - Lasker won the title already in 1894.
Or <Tarrasch was held in high regard throughout his career for his contributions to opening theory.> Well, would Maroczy, Nimzowitsch and many others agree?!
|Jun-16-19|| ||keypusher: <telemus > that’s my stupidity. I was trying to link to my profile, not realizing that everyone clicking on it would be brought to their own profile.|
|Jun-16-19|| ||Telemus: <beatgiant: Well, I may be slow, but this is still not at all clear to me.> No problem. I try to be more precise.|
There was a time when every student of medicine was obliged to finish the studies with the normal exams and a thesis, and after that he (there were no women at that time) received the right to call himself a doctor.
Then the rules were changed and the medical exams and the thesis were separated: with the exams, but without the thesis one could practize medicine, but without having the title 'doctor'. This is todays situation, too. And Tarrasch wrote no thesis.
Some people argue that the information on Tarrasch's thesis could have been lost. But that's impossible in Germany as some people say. For myself, the most convincing argument is Tarrasch's "Dreihundert Schachpartien". This book presents a lot of biographical information, and Tarrasch would have mentioned a thesis for sure.
|Jun-16-19|| ||Telemus: <keypusher> That's a nice gimmick!|
|Jun-16-19|| ||sneaky pete: <there were no women at that time>|
When was womanhood invented (and why didn't they think of it earlier)?
|Jun-16-19|| ||beatgiant: <Telemus>
Thanks. That makes it completely clear now.
As far as I know, most places in the English-speaking world don't make this distinction between "medical doctor" and "medical doctor with a thesis," hence my confusion above.
I'm sure you've figured it out now, but here's how it's supposed to look: User: keypusher
(by adding the parameter '?uname=keypusher')
|Jun-17-19|| ||keypusher: <beatgiant> Uh, Of COURSE I had figured it out! :-) |
But thanks anyway.
|Jun-17-19|| ||sudoplatov: A quick of the Wayback Machine shows that in 1889, the BCM address Siggie as Dr Tarrasch. I didn't check much further as that medium not easy to peruse.|
|Jun-17-19|| ||beatgiant: <sudoplatov>
BCM is an English-speaking source, is it not? So we wouldn't expect them to observe this German distinction as discussed above.
|Jun-17-19|| ||sudoplatov: Going Wayback further, we have:
Hamburg 1885. Both Tarrasch and Noa are referred to as Dr. I would assume that the book (in German) follows German traditions.
|Jun-17-19|| ||Sally Simpson: ***
Re Tarrasch being a doctor.
This post Siegbert Tarrasch (kibitz #400) and the next 5 or 6 following posts discuss this citing a source or two.
|Jun-17-19|| ||john barleycorn: Until today no "Promotionsurkunde" (certificate of doctorate in English(?)) for Tarrasch has been found.|
|Jul-05-19|| ||Chessist: His doctorale certificate has just been sold on ebay:|
|Jul-05-19|| ||Granny O Doul: Whoa, guess I'd better listen to this guy from now on!|
|Oct-15-19|| ||Telemus: Currently the doctoral certificate with seal is offered at ebay. From that we learn that the doctoral degree was awarded 7 March 1887 by the University of Leipzig. The title of his thesis is "Zur Casuistik der subacuten und chronischen Poliomyelitis anterior" (Polio).|
Tarrasch studied in Berlin and Halle. What is known on his relation to the University in Leipzig?
|Oct-22-19|| ||brimarern: "Remarkably, Tarrasch gives a clearer and better description of how chess is typically played than I see in our modern books, which tend to be full of broad advice and invalid generalities. One can easily see why he was considered the preeminent teacher of his time: he was not trying to fool anyone." |
-IM John Watson, commenting on 300 Chess Games & The Game of Chess by Dr. Tarrrasch, Grandmaster of Chess
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 24 OF 24 ·