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Martin Villemson
  
Number of games in database: 11
Years covered: 1929 to 1933
Overall record: +6 -4 =1 (59.1%)*
   * Overall winning percentage = (wins+draws/2) / total games.

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MARTIN VILLEMSON
(born Nov-08-1897, died Jun-22-1933, 35 years old) Estonia

[what is this?]
Last updated: 2020-07-15 19:50:36

 page 1 of 1; 11 games  PGN Download 
Game  ResultMoves YearEvent/LocaleOpening
1. A Pugal vs M Villemson  0-1241929Parnu Chess Society winter tB06 Robatsch
2. K Kuemmel vs M Villemson  0-1271929Parnu Regiment tA40 Queen's Pawn Game
3. T Veldeman vs M Villemson  1-03519293rd Parnu - Viljandi matchA06 Reti Opening
4. M Villemson vs Henneman  1-0251931corrC33 King's Gambit Accepted
5. Raymond Le Pontois vs M Villemson  0-1561931Deutsche Schachzeitung corrD35 Queen's Gambit Declined
6. F Batik vs M Villemson  1-0241931corrD51 Queen's Gambit Declined
7. M Villemson vs R Veigel  1-0241931Deutsche Schachzeitung corrC33 King's Gambit Accepted
8. M Villemson vs Keres 0-1511931Deutsche Schachzeitung 133-A corrA15 English
9. Keres vs M Villemson ½-½471932Deutsche Schachzeitung 133-A corrD30 Queen's Gambit Declined
10. K Rattmann vs M Villemson  1-0471932corrA28 English
11. M Villemson vs G Menke  1-0201933Deutsche Schachzeitung 3rd corr tC33 King's Gambit Accepted
  REFINE SEARCH:   White wins (1-0) | Black wins (0-1) | Draws (1/2-1/2) | Villemson wins | Villemson loses  

Kibitzer's Corner
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Jul-14-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Tab> Good grief.

Ok so we keep the dates as they are right now then?

In the mean time, I'm going to transcribe and submit the new <WVillemson> games <Batgirl> published over on chess.com.

Er.. might I suggest <qivitoq> as a slightly less controversial nickname?

At the least, we have no scientific evidence that Martin Villemson is not a <Norwegian Bigfoot>.

Jul-14-20  Alien Math: <... has 9 Nov., hard to say then.> <Could there be Gregorian calendar maths in play here?>

it's possible that the 9 Nov. is equal to the 27 Oct. date because of Calendars,

<Today, the Julian calendar, still used by several orthodox churches, lags 13 days behind the Gregorian calendar. In Estonian history, the dates recorded according to the February 1918 Julian calendar or the so-called Old Calendar, have to be recalculated according to the Gregorian calendar that was at that time valid elsewhere in the world, adding 13 days to the 20th century dates; 12 days to the 19th century dates etc.> http://www.estonica.org/en/Calendar...

there's also a note on Calendar usage:
<As Christianity began to migrate into northern Europe, holidays from the Gregorian or Christian calendar began to be included in the Folk’s Calendar. In modern Estonia, the Gregorian calendar is widely used for daily life, but Estonians still recognize the cultural importance of their traditional calendar.> https://www.globalroadwarrior.com/e...

Jul-14-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <jess> It was a little too obvious :) Qivitoq should be fine.
Jul-14-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Alien Math> Thank you!

The problem remains in this case that we don't know if the sources we have already factored in the Gregorian adjustment.

Jul-14-20  chesshistoryinterest: Interesting discussion.

Ok:
(1) Gaige in 'Chess Personalia' gives "Villemson, Martin - Born 9 November 1897 (New Style calendar); Died 22 June 1933, Parnu, Estonia." Gaige gives his source as 'Deutsche Schachzeitung', 1933, page 195. Anyone got access to this?

(2) <https://dea.digar.ee/cgi-bin/dea?a=... Pernausche Zeitung 18 Nov 1897 has a list of names for baptism on 22 Nov. - in which we find a "Martin Willemson".> Useful find. I think <a list of names for baptism on 22 Nov> refers to the St. Nicolai Church, whereas Willemson's baptism is in the St Elizabeth church and has already happened. Not sure if the date given for the 'Pernausche Zeitung' newspaper is Old Style or New Style calendar. At any rate, this baptism looks consistent with a birth date of Martin Villemson of circa 9 November 1897.

(3) We know the formula to convert the calendars in 1897 is to add 12 days to a date in the Old Style (OS) calendar to get the date in the New Style (NS) calendar (Old Style = Julian; New Style = Gregorian).

(4) <https://www.geni.com/people/Martin-... has 22 Oct 1897> I read the Birthdate here as 27 Oct 1897. If this is an OS date, then the equivalent NS date is 8 November 1897.

(5) I also found this for death of Villemson (Parnu Paevaleht 28 June 1933, page 4)

https://dea.digar.ee/cgi-bin/dea?a=...

Probably the same church as his baptism.
Villemson's age at death is given as <35 a. 7 k. 2 n.> The "a" fairly clearly means years, and "k" months. However, there is a later entry for someone with an age of <85 a. 4 k. 10 p.> From this, I think that probably "p" means days and "n" weeks (If "n" is days, we get back to a birthdate that doesn't make much sense). Therefore, according to this, Villemson's age at death is 35 years, 7 months, 2 weeks, or 35 years, 7 months, 14 days. This information probably comes from Villemson's mother who is still alive - I guess she would know. So working this back from death date of 22 June 1933 gives a Birthdate of 8 November 1897(NS).

This 8 November 1897 date matches the NS date in the Geni item.

So where are some people getting the 9 November 1897 date from? Maybe they've messed up converting from Old Style to New Style? Perhaps forgetting October has 31 days, not 30?

All in all, it's looking to me like 8 November 1897 might be the correct date. What do you guys think?

Jul-14-20  Alien Math: <chesshistoryinterest: Interesting discussion.

This 8 November 1897 date matches the NS date in the Geni item.

So where are some people getting the 9 November 1897 date from? Maybe they've messed up converting from Old Style to New Style? Perhaps forgetting October has 31 days, not 30?

All in all, it's looking to me like 8 November 1897 might be the correct date. What do you guys think?>

I was wondering about the 9th, since his birth is in one century <1800 - 1899> while his death is in the next century <1900 - 1999>

they would have to have calculated using the death century to get both dates, including the 9th of Nov. for birth i'm thinking

Jul-14-20  chesshistoryinterest: <Alien Math>
Or perhaps they used the difference when the calendars were changed over in 1918, which by then was 13 days. Forgetting that this difference drops down to 12 days for 19th Century dates.
Jul-14-20  Alien Math: <chesshistoryinterest: <Alien Math> Or perhaps they used the difference when the calendars were changed over in 1918, which by then was 13 days. Forgetting that this difference drops down to 12 days for 19th Century dates.>

that could be the main problem, i've seen before where <1800 - 1899> when it should be <January 1801 to December 1900> would also create confusion to what century people were talking about, a minor issue most times but still

Jul-14-20  chesshistoryinterest: Just checked English - Estonian translation:

year = aastal
month = kuu
week = nadal
day = paev

Maybe the Geni item used the same source.

Jul-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<chesshistoryinterest>, <Hanh>

Excellent digging you guys. What do you reckon? Should we change the birth date to <8 November>, or leave it on <9> November?

===============

<chesshistoryinterest> Well done on the Estonian translation.

I had to use the Estonian google translator a fair bit today whilst transcribing the three new <Martin Villemson> games that <Batgirl> discovered in Estonian chess journals.

Not easy at first, since I had to learn a new round of piece abbreviations.

L = Queen
K = King
O = Bishop
R = Knight
V = Rook

My "Estonian" remains as atrocious as it was yesterday, but I'm going to hazard a guess at the piece translations:

L = Lady
K = Kiing
O = Oh my God he's a Bishop
R = Ride em Cowboy
V = Volkswagen

It didn't help that one of the transcriptions was riddled with notation errors, though it can be fun to try to decipher the "true score."

Anyways I submitted them today. These will be the first three OTB Villemson games we will see here, thanks again to <Batgirl> (User: sbc).

Jul-15-20  Alien Math: <jessicafischerqueen> i've been thinking that <8 November> is appropriate since there are multiples of 27 Oct and 9 Nov <which would show the forgetting 12 days for calculations instead of 13 as used> yet i would recommend asking <Batgirl> for her thoughts and say since she also has a hand in uncovering information for here
Jul-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Hanh> good idea.

<Batgirl> wrote a detailed biography of <Villemson> as well eh. Invaluable information for Baltic chess history fans...

Jul-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: http://legacy-www.math.harvard.edu/... can be used perhaps.
Jul-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: Err, it should be 13 days I think, if the 9 Nov date is from after 1900. Just my gut feeling :)

<down to 12 days for 19th Century dates> 19th century <Gregorian> dates.

Jul-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: Here is an answer from <Gilbert Agung, Interested in calendar and dating system for 18 years>:

Q: I was born on 18th April. If we had kept the Julian calendar, what day would be my birthday?

A: If you were born before 1900, your Julian birthday would be 6 April. If in 1900 or after, 5 April.

So according to this, if we assume 8 Nov, it would be 27 Oct. But I'm not convinced he's right :)

Jul-15-20  Alien Math: <Tabanus: Err, it should be 13 days I think, if the 9 Nov date is from after 1900. Just my gut feeling :) <down to 12 days for 19th Century dates> 19th century <Gregorian> dates.>

<born Nov-09-1897> seems to be before 1900

Jul-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <<born Nov-09-1897> seems to be before 1900> Yes, but my point was that this date 9 Nov stems from after 1900.

Now I'm more confused than ever :)

Jul-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: Was it not only the <difference> between the two calendars that was 12 days before 1900, and 13 days after 1900? So that it would be 8 Nov before 1900 (based on 12 days), and 9 Nov after 1900 (based on 13 days). Just asking :)
Jul-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%...

<In 1900, the Old Style calender fell behind another day, so Olga's birthday is more accurately celebrated on the 16th of November, not the 15th.> So if Oct 27 is a real (not calculated) date, it would be 9 Nov. in our case.

Jul-15-20  chesshistoryinterest: I am puzzled as to why there is confusion here. The birthday celebration day example is different as two different centuries are being talked about. We are talking about an actual day here, not a celebration day. The actual days we are talking about (27 Oct 1897, 8 Nov 1897, 9 Nov 1897) are all in 1897, so the 12 days rule applies. That means that 27 Oct 1897 converts to 8 Nov 1897. I think Gilbert Agung is correct.

<So that it would be 8 Nov before 1900 (based on 12 days), and 9 Nov after 1900 (based on 13 days). Just asking> I think Yes.

In my opinion, the date should be 8 Nov 1897 unless further information comes to light. This is because our only primary source gives us this date. And it's a New Style calendar date, so not even dependent on whether 12 or 13 days is taken to do calendar change. So it's a question of do we accept the age at death of 35 years, 7 months, 14 days given by the Parnu Eliisabeti church as being deadly accurate? (Maybe the church did it this way, because giving a birthdate could cause confusion as to whether it was New Style or Old style.)

I suspect the Geni people also used this source. In genealogy, I believe the standard is to give dates as they officially applied at the time (this way of dating is not appropriate for our purpose). So they would have had to convert the 8 Nov 1897 date to Old Style. If all this is so, then they have (correctly) gone back 12 days to get 27 Oct 1897.

It would be good if we knew how the various people got their 9 Nov 1897 date. But it would seem confusion could be a possibility. Perhaps they got the Geni date (and weren't aware of the Parnu Eliisabeti church material) and went forward 13 days.

I also think it would be a good idea to ask Batgirl her opinion. (I thank her for the Villemson biography, and great that you are putting her games into chessgames, JFQ. Also, I think "Villemson" is the Estonian way of spelling the name, "Willemson", the German (eg "Walter" is "Valter" in Estonian).) Also, I'm sure <hemy>'s opinion would be valuable should he care to post here.

Jul-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<chesshistoryinterest> Well I'm convinced enough to change the date to 8 November. Which I just did.

I also agree on "Villemson" which luckily is already the name here, so we don't have to submit a correction slip.

Jul-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <chesshistoryinterest> Good reasoning, I buy it. They indeed celebrated Olga's birthday one day too late.

And besides, 8 November is my birth date.

Jul-16-20  jith1207: <Tabanus: besides, 8 November is my birth date>

Before or After 1900? :)

Jul-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: Before 1960 :) And it is also <Phony Benoni>'s birth date!
Jul-26-20  chesshistoryinterest: <jessicafischerqueen>, <Tabanus> Good that all of us agree that this is the correct date. I think this fairly well confirms it.

Ironic that Batgirl had 4 differing dates and we came up with a fifth...! Given so many differing dates, I think this is a good one to have sorted out.

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