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Jun-16-25
 | | WannaBe: <beatgiant> Light the first rope on both end, it will burn out in 30m At the same time lit the second rope at one end. When rope 1 is done (burnt through) light the other end of the 2nd rope, so the remainder will only burn 15m Hence 45m total.
Does that explain how it's done without going down to the atomic level of how burning and fire and heat works? I was able to understand the puzzle while watching a 20s YouTube Short. |
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Jun-16-25
 | | beatgiant: <WannaBe> That solution depends on assuming that if the two ropes take an hour, each one alone would take 30 minutes, but just given what you told us, it's not at all obvious that would be true. Isn't it possible that the first one alone could take 1 minute and the second one alone could take 59 minutes (which was the point of the questions I posted above)? In the latter case, I don't think your solution would work, but correct me if I'm wrong. |
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Jun-16-25
 | | beatgiant: <WannaBe> It also depends on the assumption that the original 60 minute burning was by lighting the pair of ropes at one point, so that we can achieve a speedup by lighting a rope at both ends. In the bonfire case, we typically would light them at multiple points already (which was the point of asking about jumbling them in a bonfire versus burning them end-to-end). |
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Jun-16-25 | | stone free or die: <<beat> Do we mix them together in a jumble and light a bonfire?> OK, that got a chuckle. |
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Jun-16-25
 | | beatgiant: "Game ending in 5...NxR mate": While going over my list of claims above and looking for ways to break them, I found a new type of solution. 1. Nc3 Nf6 2. Nd5 Ne4 3. Nxe7 Nxf2 4. Nd5 Qh4 5. g4 Nxh1#. I'll update my list of claims and give it another week before posting my count. There might still be some more solutions out there. |
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Jun-17-25
 | | beatgiant: "Game ending in 5...NxR mate": And yet another type: 1. h4 Nc6 2. Rh3 Nb4 3. d4 c6 4. Rd3 Qa5 5. Nf3 Nxd3# |
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Jun-17-25 | | stone free or die: Oh, I wish I had found that last one - very, very nice! |
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Jun-17-25
 | | beatgiant: Here's my updated list of claims about "game ending in 5...NxR mate." Claim: The rook must be captured on h1, d3 or f3. Claim: There's no solution with a pawn promotion. Claim: The king must be mated on e1 or f2.
Claim: For the mates with the rook on d3 or f3, either Black's knight must capture the e-pawn, or Black must set up a double check with the knight and queen for Nxd3#. Claim: If the knight delivers the mate to a king on f2, either White must develop the bishop to e3 and the queen to e1, or White must open the e-file and draw Black's queen to e7, and Black's knight must maneuver to h1. Claim: If the knight delivers the mate to a king on e1 by capturing a rook on h1, it will be a variant of the discovered check solution with a queen on h4. Which claims are most likely to be broken? Maybe the king can be mated on c2, b3 or g3, or maybe the rook can be captured on g2. All those are possible in 6 moves, as is a solution with a pawn promoted to knight. Is there a clever way to save a move in any of those scenarios? |
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Jun-17-25
 | | beatgiant: As a side puzzle, how long is the shortest game ending in ...NxR mate where the white king is mated on d2? I managed to find a solution in 8 moves; can anyone beat that record? But I'd be amazed if it can be done in as few as 5 moves. |
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Jun-18-25
 | | beatgiant: Following up on the side puzzle, I found a 6-move solution for a game ending in ...NxR mate with the white king mated on d2. I still don't think it's possible in only 5 though. |
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Jun-20-25
 | | beatgiant: "5-move game ending in ...NxR mate"
So have we found all the solution types? I haven't found any new ones lately, we have pretty good reasons to believe we're done, but I'm not up for running an exhaustive search for absolute proof.Instead, I've decided to catalog here in one place all the currently known solution types, plus the frontiers of other situations where I've only found ways in more than 5 moves and we'd need a speedup. I'm hoping this might help other kibitzers bring new insights to decide whether we really have found all the solutions. |
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Jun-20-25
 | | beatgiant: "5-move game ending in ...NxR mate"
Known Solution Methods
Type 1: White K on f2, Q and B blocking e1 and e3, Black N on h1
Example: 1. d4 Nf6 2. Be3 g6 3. f3 Nh5 4. Kf2 Ng3 5. Qe1 Nxh1#Type 2: White K on f2, Black Q on e7, N on h1
Example: 1. e4 Nf6 2. f3 Nxe4 3. Qe2 Ng3 4. Qxe7+ Qxe7+ 5. Kf2 Nxh1# Type 3: White K on e1, Black N on f3 or d3 after capturing e-pawn
Example: 1. g3 Nc6 2. a4 Nd4 3. Ra3 Nxe2 4. Rf3 Nd4 5. Ne2 Nxf3# Type 4: White K on e1, Black N on d3 and Q on a5 with double check
Example: 1. d4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. a4 Nb4 4. Ra3 Qa5 5. Rd3 Nxd3# Type 5: White K on e1, Black N on h1 and Q on h4 with disc. check
Example: 1. Nc3 Nf6 2. Nd5 Ne4 3. Nxe7 Nxf2 4. Nxc8 Qh4 5. g4 Nxh1# |
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Jun-20-25
 | | beatgiant: "5-move game ending in ...NxR mate"
Frontiers of other situations - the challenge of 5 movesWe've probably already found all the ways with capturing the rook on h1, d3 or f3, but can it be taken somewhere else? Here are some tries, but they take 6 moves. Capture on g2: 1. g3 Nf6 2. e3 b6 3. h3 Nh5 4. Rh2 Nf4 5. Ba6 Bxa6 6. Rg2 Nxg2# Capture on c2: 1. c4 Nf6 2. b3 c5 3. d3 Nc6 4. a3 Nb4 5. Ra2 Qa5 6. Rc2 Nxc2# Capture on g4, h3 or e4: 1. h4 Nf6 2. g4 Nxg4 3. Rh3 e6 4. Rg3 Nxf2 5. Rg4 Qxh4 6. Nc3 Nxg4# (Note: similar method also works for rook on h3 or e4) Capture on a2: 1. d3 c5 2. Kd2 d5 3. a3 Nc6 4. Kc3 Nb4 5. Bd2 Qb6 6. Ra2 Nxa2# Similarly, can the king be mated on other squares besides the ones we've seen? Here are some tries. Mate on g3: 1. f3 g5 2. Kf2 d5 3. Kg3 Nf6 4. b3 Ng4 5. Bb2 Nf2 6. Bxh8 Nxh1# Mate on c2: 1. d3 Nc6 2. Kd2 Nd4 3. c3 Nb3+ 4. Kc2 e5 5. Nf3 Qg5 6. g3 Nxa1# Mate on b3: 1. d3 c5 2. Kd2 Nc6 3. Kc3 Nb4 4. Kb3 Qa5 5. c4 Nc2 6. Nc3 Nxa1# Mate on d2: 1. d3 Nf6 2. Nc3 Ne4 3. h4 Ng5 4. Rh3 g6 5. Rf3 Bh6 6. Kd2 Nxf3# Mate on c3: See example above with rook capture on a2 Mate on e3: I couldn't even manage to find a way in 6 moves, but I'll post a couple of 7-move examples in case anyone wants to take on the daunting challenge of making it faster. 1. h4 Nf6 2. h5 b6 3. Rh4 Bb7 4. f4 c5 5. Kf2 c4 6. Ke3 e5 7. Rg4 Nxg4# 1. d4 e5 2. Kd2 Qh4 3. Ke3 Nc6 4. a4 Na5 5. Ra3 e4 6. Rc3 Nf6 7. Rc4 Nxc4# |
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Jun-20-25
 | | beatgiant: "5-move game ending in ...NxR mate"
For completeness, I should mention I also looked for a mate on e2, but didn't find one shorter than 7 moves. Example: 1. a4 b6 2. Ra3 Ba6 3. e3 Nc6 4. Rc3 Nd4 5. Nf3 Nb5 6. Ke2 Nf6 7. Qe1 Nxc3# |
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Jul-02-25
 | | beatgiant: "5-move game ending in ...NxR mate"
I'm ready to say our five known patterns are probably all the solutions, because we've done enough due diligence to look at other scenarios, we have good explanations why the other scenarios take more than 5 moves, and nobody has found any other solutions after some time. Besides, if anyone does somehow find new solutions, we can just add them to the count. The next step is to calculate the number of combinations for the known patterns. I will post my calculations for each of the cases in a series of kibitzes probably over about a week, unless any other kibitzer beats me to it. I plan to cover Type 1 (see above) tomorrow. I'll show my work, but don't expect long explanations. I will assume kibitzers who care about counting problems already understand the typical combinatorial math. |
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Jul-02-25
 | | OhioChessFan: Okay, I need to have a go at this. |
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Jul-03-25
 | | beatgiant: "5-move game ending in NxR mate"
Spoiler alert: I'm going to start showing how I count the solutions. If you want to work it out yourself, read no further. Boredom alert: If you aren't interested in counting problems, read no further. It's a wall of math. Solution Type 1: White K on f2, Q and B blocking e1 and e3, Black N on h1 I break it into cases depending on the route taken by Black's knight. The following routes are feasible: Nc6-d4-f5-g3-h1, Ne7-f5-g3-h1,
Nf6-e4-g3-h1, Nf6-h5-g3-h1, Nh6-f5-g3-h1.
Nc6-d4-f5-g3-h1: For this route, Black has only one choice of moves. White has to play the sequence (d3 or d4), Be3 in that order, and the sequence f3, Kf2, Qe1 in that order, and these two sequences can be interleaved. For the number of interleavings I get 5!/(2!*3!), and multiply this by 2 to account for the choice of d3 or d4: 2*5!/(2!*3!) = 20. Ne7-f5-g3-h1: For this route, Black must start with 1...e6 or 1...e5, and has only one choice for the rest of the moves. White has the same 2*5!/(2!*3!) choices as above, and multiply this by 2 to account for the choice of ...e6 or ...e5: 2*2*5!/(2!*3!) = 40. Nf6-e4-g3-h1: For this route, White can play Kf2 only after Black has played ...Ng3, so the moves must be 1...Nf6, 2...Ne4, 3...Ng3 4. Kf2 5. Qe1 Nxh1#. Black's fourth move must be a filler with knight or pawn, and there are 1 knight and 8 pawns with 2 options each for 2*(1+8) options. For the first three moves White must play (d3 or d4), Be3 in that order and f3. There are 3 options when to play f3, and 2 options for the d-pawn so 3*2 options for White. Put them together: 2*(1+8)*3*2 = 108. Nf6-h5-g3-h1: For this route, there's no interaction between Black's and White's moves, so White has 2*5!/(2!*3!) or 20 options again. For Black's filler move, we must distinguish the general fillers from the moves ...f6 or ...h5 that intersect the knight's route. For the general case, the knight and 6 of the pawns have 2 choices each, and the f- and h-pawns have 1 choice each, and the filler can be played on any of the first 4 moves, so there are 4*(2*(1+6)+2) choices for those. If the filler move is ...f6, it must be played after 2...Nh5 and before 5...Nxh1# so there are 2 choices. If the filler moves is ...h5, it must be played after 3...Ng3 and before 5...Nxh1# so it must be the 4th move. Combining all these with White's choices, we get 2*5!/(2!*3!)*[4*(2*(1+6)+2)+2+1] = 1340. Nh6-f5-g3-h1: For this route, as before White has 2*5!/(2!*3!) or 20 options again, and the logic with the fillers is same as above with the 2*(1+6)+2 for those that don't intersect the knight's path, and 2 options when ...h6 could be played and 1 for ...f5, so we again get 2*5!/(2!*3!)*[4*(2*(1+6)+2)+2+1] = 1340. Putting all these together, I get the total number of options for Solution Type 1 as 20+40+108+1340+1340 = 2848. Did I get that right? As always, I'll be happy to take any corrections. |
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Jul-04-25
 | | beatgiant: "5-move game ending in NxR mate"
<Did I get that right?> I've already found one mistake in my work above. I'll post a correction later (unless another kibitzer spots it first). |
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Jul-08-25
 | | beatgiant: "5-move game ending in NxR mate"
I will now explain my mistake above. Spoiler alerts apply. For the Type 1 solutions in the Nc6-d4-f5-g3-h1 route, I argued that White has a 2-move sequence (d-pawn, Be3) and a 3-move sequence (f3, Kf2, Qe1) and there are 5!/(2!*3!) = 10 interleavings of them. This part, I think, is valid. In fact the number is small enough one can even list out the 10 variations by hand. But then I said that White can play either d3 or d4, so we can double that number and get 20 variations. Here's the flaw. The game may begin 1. f3 Nc6 2. Kf2 Nd4.
 click for larger viewAs we can see, White can't play 3. d4 here because the knight already occupies the square. This means the formula with doubling will count some spurious solutions, variations that can't actually be played. To correct for this, we need to subtract the cases that start with 1. f3 Nc6 2. Kf2 Nd4 3. d4. In those, we find White plays Be3 either on move 4 or 5, so there are 2 of them. So the correct answer for the Nc6-d4-f5-g3-h1 case is 2*5!/(2!*3!) - 2 = 18, and for the Type 1 solutions (assuming no other mistake) is 18+40+108+1340+1340 = 2846. |
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Jul-08-25
 | | Sally Simpson: I entered a best pun competition. To give myself a good chance of winning I submitted 10 puns. None won. 'No pun in ten needed!' |
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Jul-12-25
 | | beatgiant: "5-move game ending in ...NxR mate"
After some time, nobody has found any more mistakes in the Type 1 count above, so I'll move on now to Type 2. Spoiler alert and boredom alert apply. Solution Type 2: White K on f2, Black Q on e7, N on h1 with the e-pawns gone. Black's moves are fixed: 1...Nf6, 2...Nxe4, 3...Ng3, 4...Qxe7, 5...Nxh1#. By move 3, White has to get pawns on e4 and f3 and queen on e2 and reach the following position:  click for larger viewSo in the first 3 moves White has to play e4 and Qe2 in that order, and has to play f3. One could note that f3 can be on any of the moves, so the answer is 3 (similar to the way I showed the count is 2 for the spurious solutions above). Or one could see it as interleaving a 2-move sequence and a 1-move sequence and use our now-familiar formula for that: 3!/(1!*2!) = 3. I could have done that also above (interleaving a pair of 1-move sequences or 2!/(1!*1!) = 2) but felt ridiculous applying such overkill on something all of us can solve in our heads. Total number of options for Solution Type 2: 3. |
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Jul-12-25 | | stone free or die: (I really should revisit this topic - maybe I could motivate myself by offering to publish <beat>'s work on my blog? That is, if he were willing to grant permission.) |
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Jul-12-25
 | | beatgiant: <stone free or die> Sure, blog away. Permission granted. This doesn't quite seem like the kind of content that would go viral anyway.... |
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Jul-12-25 | | stone free or die: Thanks <beat>, my blog gets steady low volume traffic but surely isn't mainstream. It was just a curious sidenote I found researching a player who was a mathematician - but you showed it was a lot more challenging than I first thought. It would be nice to collect your posts as a coherent whole (maybe slighted edited down?). Of course, it will take me a bit to get round to it given my typical summer laziness. |
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Jul-12-25 | | stone free or die: (I really just want to publish your double-check mate on the Q-side, which I find very pretty) |
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