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| Apr-06-05 | | tud: I wanted to baptise my daughter Rebecca and last minute I changed to another name (no jewish ancestors). But my controllers name was Rebecca and she was dutch. No jewish origin. Isaac Newton is not jewish. Alburt said "Karpov, 34, proclaimed an ethnic Russian, but surely with some Jewish grandparents, is a frail, cool, self-controlled man" What ? Like why is he surely with Jewish grandparents ? Give Spasski, Karpov and probably Kramnik, a break. With all respect for the love of their country and religion, some are going to push it in the contrary direction. Give similar education and conditions to people and you get equal repartition of geniuses, probably... |
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Apr-06-05
 | | BishopBerkeley: "Rebecca" is a beautiful name :) I have a good Jewish first name myself (David), though I appear to have turned out almost entirely non-Jewish (except possibly in the gastronomic sense). I wonder if anyone has read J.R.R. Tolkien's response to the government of Nazi Germany, which seemed to be anxious to bring out a translation of his work. Here is but one source (of many) for that letter. As I understand it, it is generally accepted to be authentic: http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue260/l...
When asked by the Nazi government in 1938 to provide evidence of "arisch" (Aryan) parentage before a German translation of The Hobbit was published, Tolkien responded: "Personally, I should be inclined to refuse ... and let a German translation go hang. ... [I] should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine." And later, in a direct letter to the Nazi government: "If I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people ... if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name [like Tolkien] will no longer be a source of pride." Tell 'em, J.R.R!
(: ♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗ :) |
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Apr-06-05
 | | Joshka: <pazzed paun> Spassky agreed to not use modern theory against Bobby in 1992? What source do you get this info from? Have never heard this. |
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| Apr-06-05 | | WMD: Like the man said, it was a rumour. And not entirely incredible. |
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| Apr-06-05 | | Everett: And why is one's religion and cultural background so vital in this conversation? Why are we discussing this? I'm simply asking, no sarcasm, seriously. |
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| Apr-06-05 | | pazzed paun: <Joshka> you would recognize the name for shure_THEY have had chances to put this in print but it seems they have chosen not to. |
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| Apr-06-05 | | Champ Supernova: Spassky is at least some part jewish, (looks VERY jewish), Fischer is at least half-jewish (looks VERY jewish) Kramnik is at least part jewish (looks VERY jewish), and Karpov is not jewish at all (looks VERY russian). |
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Apr-06-05
| | Joshka: <pazzed paun> <you would recognize the name for sure> < they have chosen not to>
Are you under a gag order, or just choose not to mention the name as well? |
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| Apr-06-05 | | pazzed paun: <Joshka>I am not under a gag order but the person who told me this would be able to talk to both Spassky and Fischer-they would trust him and he writes about chess so my guess is he did not want to publish this story right now but might do so in the future. When I heard it, it made sense.
Look at the games from the 1992 match-
there is cutting edge opening theory as of 1971! |
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Apr-06-05
 | | offramp: <pazzed paun> You are right there. All the games look very passé. It wouldn't surprise me if some agreement was reached about bypassing modern opening theory. |
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| Apr-07-05 | | vonKrolock: <Spassky agreed to not use modern theory against Bobby in 1992> This i'll call surely FIXING... |
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Apr-11-05
 | | Eric Schiller: I really hate to post this. But it comes from the British paper "The Telegraph" and I think we can't ignore it. It goes against everything I've every known abous Spassky, and he has never done anything against Jewish players or treated anyone badly on the basis of ethnicity. I hope it turns out to be bogus. The excerpt is from
http://www.telegraph.co.uk
Outrage in Russia as Spassky puts name to rabidly anti-Semitic petition
By Bojan Pancevski
(Filed: 10/04/2005)
Boris Spassky, the former chess world champion, has caused uproar in Russia by signing a petition that demands the country's state prosecutor bans a number of Jewish organisations. Spassky was among 5,000 Russians who put their name to a letter calling for a ban on all religious and national groups acting on the principles of the Shulchan Aruch, a repository of Jewish law originally written in the 1560s.
...
It warned of a "hidden campaign of genocide against the Russian people and their traditional society and values", and was backed with quotes from anti-Semitic literature from the 19th century.
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There is much more in the article but I think this brief excerpt is all I should post under Fair Use provisions of the copyright act. To read the rest you'll need to register. Again, this isn't the Boris Spassky I have known for over 2 decades. Nor the one I chatted with at the Western States Open last year. I'm shocked, but will still wait to get more information. |
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| Apr-11-05 | | csmath: That explains his friendship with Fischer. LOL. |
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| Apr-11-05 | | WMD: <But it comes from the British paper "The Telegraph" and I think we can't ignore it.> It was raised here last week when the story first broke. <I hope it turns out to be bogus.> Seems unlikely when the article you quote states:
<Late on Friday, after constant criticism from religious leaders and figures in the chess world, Spassky tried to distance himself from the campaign. He did not deny that he had signed it, but said: "The appearance of my name was a mistake. As a 'Chess King' I have always tried to fortify and unite the multinational kingdom of chess, and not to cause division within it. I will remain faithful to that principle in my old age."Evgeny Gik, a Russian chess master and writer who is a long-term acquaintance of Spassky, had condemned the letter in a Russian newspaper. He recalled how, in the 1990s, Spassky travelled from his home in France to the St Petersburg chess club to be the guest of honour at a dinner party. There, according to Gik, Spassky remarked: "Everything is good in Russia, but I don't know how the Russian people can have allowed so many big-nosed people into government." Gik said that several grandmasters left the table in protest.> Regarding the copyright issue, if three or four posters each quote a couple of paragraphs, thereby posting the whole article, that should be fine. |
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| Apr-11-05 | | csmath: Coincidentally Spassky has rather large nose himself. LOL |
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| Apr-11-05 | | WorldChampeen: There are quite a few reports on this story. I've read a few to ascertain a better understanding of the issue of which I am dissapointed in Spassky but am still seeking to find out more. "MOSCOW - About 5,000 people, including former world chess champion Boris Spassky, have signed a letter asking prosecutors to ban Jewish organizations because they believe one of the basic Judaic books professes religious hatred, according to a center that monitors religious freedom. " ...
"The signatories claim that "Kizur Shulkhan Arukh," an abbreviated version of a 16th-century book that lays out daily rules for Jews, teaches hatred toward non-Jews, Sova said." - http://www.sptimes.ru/archive/times... Here is another source:
http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?i...
Also, I read quite a few reports from around the world considering the Fischer issue. |
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| Apr-11-05 | | vonKrolock: It would be very sad that he should decided to pose as the Torquemada of Russian Chess, and loud aplauses to other Chess personalities that refuses to such demonstrations of mind narrowness |
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Apr-11-05
 | | IMlday: I too would like to read the actual petition rather than have some English editor determine for me that it is "rabidly antisemitic". A bit of googling revealed that Kitzur Shulkhan Arukh is no longer even taught in most Israeli religious schools. Plus that it set forth a morality where race/religion is a pivotal standard in ethical behaviour.
How Jews were allowed to treat other Jews was quite different from how they were allowed to treat Gentiles. This quickly led to a modern Israeli lawyer's discuss of "permissable ventures" at http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/ventur...
The big oligarch case against ex-tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky is very much a question of the permissability of his Yukos 'venture' and the ethics of big business; big, big business as in: if the charge is evading $28billion (U.S.)in taxes what was the income?
If Rabbi Ganzfried was preaching that it is a 'permissable venture' for Jews to rip off Slavs, then possibly banning organizations following that principle makes a certain sense. Kasparov seems to think Khodorkovsky is some kind of martyr, and Putin the villain, while I hear Karpov has come out pro-Putin. But Spassky seems to have chased the philosophic element back to its roots. |
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Apr-11-05
| | Eric Schiller: I agree with IM Day, the Telegraph spin has to be taken into account, and a lot more information is needed. With a story like this, it isn't just the facts that matter, but also how they are presented. So I hope that people will post excerpts of what they find here. |
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| Apr-11-05 | | TheSlid: Here is an extract from the article, which appears in the Sunday Telegraph from the 10th April: <Many leading Soviet-era players were Jewish, including Garry Kasparov, officially the highest-ranked in the world but now retired. The intense competition created a "them and us" division between Jewish and non-Jewish players, who include Spassky. Although this is the first time that Spassky has given vent to anti-Semitic feelings in public, Fischer - whose parents were, in fact, Jewish - has frequently exposed himself as a Holocaust denier and anti-Semite.> Speaking as a Telegraph reader for 40 years, I would suggest that this material has been printed up with a view to discrediting anti-semitic views. The Telegraph is the most right wing of the UK Quality press and the Conservative leader is Jewish. Poor Boris - reduced to pawn in an unwinnable election! |
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| Apr-11-05 | | TheSlid: By way of explanation - there is an imminent election in the UK - one which the Conservaties will lose, not helped by a leader with negatve charisma. |
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Apr-11-05
 | | Gypsy: <TheSlid> Thanks for the insight! |
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| Apr-11-05 | | tud: Everett: origin is not important only genius is. That's the whole point of my posts to explain that Spasski (this modern lazy Capablanca) is not jewish to people trying to demonstrate the contrary (and this way pinpointing that origin in chess is not important, genius is). I believe anisemitism and antislavism are very bad. Tens of millions of slavs and millions of jews have been murdered during WW2. However if we don't like Putin we are not into philosemitism and if we don't like Sharon we are not into antisemitism. Or when we say that Spasski is NOT jewish. And we are not against palestinians when we like Tal, Lasker, Steinitz who were jewish. |
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| Apr-12-05 | | vonKrolock: <LDay> Thanks for the enlightning remarks. The reading and knowledge of the contents of the material is fundamental to understand the question arised, whithout precipitating in further conclusions. I seriously doubt that such archaic perscriptions can be taken seriously in the contemporary world by entities and organizations - maybe by some individuals searching alibis or justifications for devious behaviour. I want to believe that the discussed main point is a mere apendix from a past of obscurantism (The reading of the preceding paragraphe can be slower than a pogrom storm over some village, whith the perpetrators having no time to ask people if they follow or not determinated article in a 1560 book...) There are some discussions on Schlechter's page on the question of who is Jewish, it seems that the orthodox point of vue considers a person as belonging to the group when coming from a mother-sided lignage (regardless if he/she WANTS, and notwhistanding personal opinion and even conversion to another faith) It's quite comprehensible that an individual can rebel against such fatalism... (just searching for some explanations...) |
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| Apr-12-05 | | tud: The story heard (and I did not believe it first time but can be a prove as big as his presumed origin) was that back in the 50s, Spassky was a wonderkid and started playing chess to run away from poverty. After the 2nd war, the soviet chess had a lot of excellent jewish players: Botvinnik, Smyslov, Bronstein, Averbach, Boleslavski etc. some of them great trainers, and with (attention) tough influence upon the future of chess. Spassky, 14 yrs old, integrated himself and rumours say that he did not deny a certain jewish origin which was not true. After becoming a real contender, and probably he was the best between 1965 and 1969 (Fisher lost 2 games to him ), he started speaking up the truth but it was too late :-) He is very russian, he likes partying, women, drinks, good life. He is not a psycho like Bobby, so why not simply believing him ? |
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