|Dec-06-03|| ||Shadout Mapes: 25.Kxh1 Rxh2+ 26.Kg1 Rh1+ 27.Kg2 R7h2# |
|Dec-06-03|| ||Bears092: I think 23. Qxh1+ woulda got it done a little quicker |
|Dec-06-03|| ||dalilama: how would 23.....Qxh1 have worked better? king takes queen then what? |
|Dec-06-03|| ||patzer2: White plays the opening correctly for seven moves, and then errs with the tempo-wasting 8. a3. Several good options were 8. Nbd2 as in Van der Wiel vs Tiviakov, 2001 or 8. Qb3 as in Spassky vs G Forintos, 1964 or 8. Qa4 Bh3 9. Rd1 with equality per Fritz 8. |
|Dec-06-03|| ||crafty: 23.....♕xh1+ 24. ♔xh1 ♖dh7 25. ♗xa7 ♖xh2+ 26. ♔g1 ♖h1+ 27. ♔g2 ♖7h2# (eval -Mat04; depth 18 ply; 10M nodes)|
|Dec-06-03|| ||kevin86: Thanks to the prison bars of ewhite and black pawns,white cannot escape,so BEARS idea of the earlier sac is valid and a far more beautiful finish. |
|Dec-06-03|| ||JerseyDevil: Bears sac works with 23... Qxh1+ 24. Kxh1 Rdh7 25. Kg1 Rxh2 26. Kf1 Rh1+ 27. Kg2 R7h2#. It is one move quicker. |
|Dec-06-03|| ||MoonlitKnight: Both variations end up with mate in the 27th move and both are forced mates, so the order is the only difference. |
|Dec-06-03|| ||Eggman: <BEARS idea of the earlier sac is valid and a far more beautiful finish.>|
Looks like it. Well done Bears092!
|Dec-06-03|| ||patzer2: <Bears092>'s suggested 23...Qxh1 is a move quicker, as noted by <JerseyDevil>. After 23...Rdh7, White can prolong the game by one move with 24. f3. Fritz 8 gives 24. f3 Qxf3 25. Bd5 [if 25. Rd2 or 25. Qb2, then 25...Rxg3+ mates on black's next move] 25...Qxh1+ 26. Kxh1 Rxh2+ 27. Kg1 Rh1+ 28. Kg2 [or 28. Kf2] 28...R7h2# However, the difference is not significant, which is <MoolitKnight>'s point.|
As a side note, if 23. f3 (to avoid 23...Qxh1+ or 23...Rdh7), Fritz 8 gives the Black win with 23...gxf3 24. Qb2 Bd6 25. Qf2 Rdh7 26. Rc1 Bxg3 27. Qxg3 Rxg3+ 28. hxg3 f2+ 29. Kxf2 - +(-8.72 @ 16 depth & 674kN/s).
|Dec-06-03|| ||talchess2003: Nice find Bears092
<Patzer2: White plays the opening correctly for seven moves, and then errs with the tempo-wasting 8. a3.>
What do you mean tempo-wasting? He's expanding on the queenside, that's good, not bad, how can you say it was a waste of a move? Even if its not the best move, which I would need to be convinced of, its a good move, and not a waste. I know you looked in the Opening Explorer, and it didnt say the move 8.a3 .. but that is simply because they only have like 10 games that reached this position.
You see the move a6 in almost every Benoni variation these days, to push for b5, now that black has found trouble with the Na6-c7 variation.
Black just simply outplayed white in the middle game ;p
|Dec-06-03|| ||patzer2: <Talchess> <What do you mean tempo-wasting? He's expanding on the queenside, that's good, not bad> |
After doing some analysis with Fritz 8, I have to concur that 8. a3 is not altogether a bad move, although Fritz gives five better moves and lists my favorite 8. Qb3 (similar to the Spassky game above) as best.
Initially, I had considered the move "tempo-wasting" for several reasons. First, 8. a3 develops a rook pawn (as an opening novelty) before developing a piece. Second, 8. a3 takes no immediate action to counter Black's plan of taking over the center and launching a kingside attack. Third, it is infernior to a more solid plan of developing the White pieces before moving a rook pawn as in the solid 8. Nbd2 in Brenninkmeijer vs Van der Wiel, 2001 or immediately counterattacking with the even better 8. Qb3 (similar to the Spassky game above) which was recommended by Fritz 8 as a best move.
I put it to Fritz 8 and the program gave 8. Qb3 (+0.47) , 8. e3 (+0.44), 8. Re1 (+0.41 as leading to a slight White advantage, while 8. Nb2 (+0.25) and 8. Qa4 (+0.19) are given as equalizing (@ 13 depth & 641kN/s).
The move 8. a3 was rated as equalizing but slightly inferior to all of these tries, because Black equalizes immediately with 8... Nge7 per Fritz.
Interestingly, Fritz indicates Black went wrong with the plan of 8...f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 as Black could have obtained a clear advantage with the immediate 10. b4 (+0.78 @ 15 depth & 672kN/s). However, 8. a6 Nge7 only gives white equality. So, based on Black's inferior play I must concede that White went wrong at some point after 8.a3 (e.g. not playing the immediate 10. b4!) and that 8. a3 cannot be blamed for his defeatin this game.
So, my assessment of 8. a3 is now that it is not a bad move, but inferior to other eighth moves that better advance White's development or counter Black's strategy, such as 8. Qb3. Does that justify calling 8. a3 "tempo wasting?" Probably not. Perhaps simply "equalizing but inferior" is a better description.
|Dec-06-03|| ||patzer2: White missed a big opportunity to obtain a clear advantage by not playing the simple 13. Nxg5, as 13. b5 equalizes and let's black in the game with counter-chances. |
|Dec-06-03|| ||Sneaky: This game is in the book "Unusual Queen's Gambit Declined" by Chris Ward.|
I don't have the patience to transcribe his entire analysis of this game but here are Ward's comments for some key moves:
5...♗f5 <The third bishop posting alternative which, as results would indicate, offers Black the most chances. The text doesn't pressurise the f3-knight (as it does on g4) nor does it threaten White's c-pawn (as it does on e6). However, the option remains for ...Qd7 and ...Bh3, whilst controlling the f5-b1 heralds some bonuses of its own. WIth the bishop arguably less vulnerable on f5, White must always be aware of the possibility of ...Nb4 (.e.g, after 6.Nbd2? Nb4!) Black's light-squared bishop has an option of dropping into e4 and the pawn push ...d3 is always in the offing too.>
8. a3 <As with both 5...Bg4 and 5...Be6, there are a variety of different approaches that White can take. Relatively speaking, though, this varaition is in its early stages.>
8 ...f6 <Certainly not the first time we've seen the pawn sacrifice confirmed in this manner, although this game introduces from new features. Again 8...Bh3 is possible (with White having the option of returning the pawn for a tempo with 9.e6) whilst 8...d3 is another idea available in the ...Bf5 lines. That said, I prefer White's position after 9. exd3 Bxd3 10. Re1 Bxc4 11. Qa4.>
12...g5?! <You may wonder what's going on here; I know I am! Of course the likes of Fritz want to grab this pawn too but obviously humans have a tendancy to be a little more cautious.>
17. ♖h1 <To my mind this is slightly premature although h2 is an obvious target.>
|Dec-06-03|| ||talchess2003: I think that better for white was 14. bxc6 Qxc6 15. Kg1 gxf3 16. Nxf3 h5 17. Ne5 Qe6 18. Bf4 h4 19. Qa4 a6 20. Rb1 hxg3 21. Rxb7 Kxb7 22. Rb1+ Kc8 23. Nc6|
This probably has flaws in it, since I didn't play it out on a board, but this variation including the rook sac really appeals to me, after gxh2+ the king would be safe on h1. You could definitely call it a double-edged variation.
|Dec-06-03|| ||jaime gallegos: well done Bears092, that means he thinks better than many of us and critices the game improving the technique to win this game... |
|Dec-06-03|| ||MoonlitKnight: As for the previous discussion of the ending, I agree that Bears' 23...Qxh1 is really beatiful. In the other variation, 24.f3 prolongs the agony indeed, although it is a move that only stupid boxes with electronic circuits would take into consideration. :) |
|Dec-06-03|| ||dacottage: Couldn't the white king get away after 23 ... Qxh1+?
As in: 23 ... Qxh1+ 24. Kxh1 Rdh7 25. Kg1 Rxh2 26. Kf1 Rh1+ 27. Ke2
|Dec-06-03|| ||kevin86: no,♔e2 is illegal,thanks to pawn at d3 |
|Dec-06-03|| ||zorro: <patzer2> I also think that 13. Nxg5 was perfectly playable.
<talchess2003> I agree on that too. After you've played 13. b5 it doesn't make sense to simply give up the e5-square, but in ur line 15. Kg1 just loses a tempo in my opinion 'cause the pin doesn't play a significant role, I would have activated my Q instead with 15. Qc2. After 15. Qc2 gxf3+ 16. Nxf3 I'm ready to play Qf5+ and Bf4. |
|Dec-06-03|| ||ongyj: If I'd never seen this game I'll never have realised the possibility of this gambit. I'm extremely poor in playing for/against gambit openings. Anyway for this opening is 4.a3 playable and what are it's pros and cons? |
|Dec-07-03|| ||dr gogusetti n rao: Crafty: <23...Qxh1 24.Kxh1 Rdh7 and so on> In this variation, if White played 25.Qe4 instead of 25.Bxa7, would the inevitable be delayed or even warded off? |
|Dec-07-03|| ||Eggman: Dr G, 25.Qe4 isn't possible. The Queen would be on b3. It hasn't captured the pawn on d3 yet. |
|Dec-07-03|| ||dr gogusetti n rao: Eggman: It's true; I made a goofer. I'm sorry. |
|Jun-10-06|| ||Mendrys: <dr gogusetti n rao> don't be down on yourself. We all get a little <egg> in our face sometimes.|