chessgames.com
Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing

Nenad Lisicic vs Djordje Arsic
21st Belgrade Trophy (2008), Belgrade SRB, rd 1, Nov-27
Catalan Opening: Closed Variation (E06)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

explore this opening
find similar games 8 more games of D Arsic
sac: 35.Qf8+ PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: You can get computer analysis by clicking the "ENGINE" button below the game.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.
PREMIUM MEMBERS CAN REQUEST COMPUTER ANALYSIS [more info]

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Dec-30-08  jimx: <YoungEd: Another mate in 3: 35. Rd7+ Rxd7 36. Qf8+ kxf8
37. Bh6++

I like forcing Black to block d7 and giving mate with the Bishop here! The actual game finish is beautiful, though.>

<Patriot: You'd better take a closer look. The king escapes on e7. :-)>

Not only that, but from what I can tell 35. Rd7 results in a complete turnaround and a forced mate in 11 for black as follows:

35. Rd7+ Rxd7
36. Ng8+ Ke8
37. Nf6+ Kd8
38. Qf8+ Kc7
39. Nd5+ Rxd5
40. Qe7+ Rd7
41. Qd6+ Rxd6
42. exd6+ Kd7
43. Kh2 Qf1
44. Be3 Rxe3
45. a3 Re2#

(Thanks to Crafty for all the heavyweight sacrifices above)

Dec-30-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eggman: <<Thanks to Crafty for all the heavyweight sacrifices above>>

Maybe someone can help me understand this: how is checking tactics with Crafty any different from looking up the answers in the back of a puzzle book? The comparison seems just about perfect when we are talking about some kind of forced mate. If I'm trying to solve a puzzle, I don't want someone looking in the back of the book and telling me what the answer is. Am I alone in this?

Dec-30-08  njchess: I saw the text move because of Black's back rank vulnerability. So, I didn't analyze Ng8+, which is also forcing and winning.
Dec-30-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  beenthere240: <eggman> The comment by jimx doesn't have anything to do with the puzzle -- it's just about an interesting variation in which white manages to lose the game with an unsound sacrifice. I agree however that I'm baffled people who look at the puzzle, plug in their engines and then post what the computer spits out. But no one will tell you the answer if you don't go onto the page until you're ready to check.
Dec-30-08  TheaN: <Eggman: <<jimx: Thanks to Crafty for all the heavyweight sacrifices above>>

Maybe someone can help me understand this: how is checking tactics with Crafty any different from looking up the answers in the back of a puzzle book?>

It isn't, but take note that jimx is not peeking at the puzzle solution but at a refutation of 35.Rd7, which are two different things.

Dec-30-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <BishopofBlunder: I think I have found another winning sequence, though not nearly as pretty as the one played: <35. Nxh7 (threatening Qf8#)
35. ..Rc8 (all other moves lose material)
36. Bg5+ f6
37. Qg7+ Ke8
38. Qf8#>

or <36. ..Rf6
37. Bxf6+ Ke8
38. Qf8#>
>

Interesting idea, but I think black can improve with 35...Rd3!, blocking our rook from its critical control of the d-file.

Dec-30-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  beenthere240: I wonder if black could have staved off disaster by contining to check black from c5 and returning to defend against the rook intrusion by retuning to c6.
Dec-30-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <Eggman> There are usually two phases to a CG puzzle - firstly the challenge of trying to solve it unaided and secondly deeper delving to uncover the "truth" of the position - alternative solutions, besy defences or what might have happened if ...

In my view, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using computers for this second phase. They can help to find combinations that would be very difficult for mere mortals to spot.

Dec-30-08  ZUGZWANG67: <BishopofBlunder: I think I have found another winning sequence, though not nearly as pretty as the one played: <35. Nxh7 (threatening Qf8#) 35. ..Rc8 (all other moves lose material)
36. Bg5+ f6
37. Qg7+ Ke8
38. Qf8#>

or <36. ..Rf6
37. Bxf6+ Ke8
38. Qf8#>
>

<<YouRang: Interesting idea, but I think black can improve with 35...Rd3!, blocking our rook from its critical control of the d-file.>>

And after 35. ...Rd3, I see something like 36. Rc1 Rc3(!), when I do not think White has anything better than the repetitive 37.Rd1 Rd3 38. Rc1, as if 37.Qf8+, White comes to the sad side of the story after 37. ... Kd7 38.Qd6+ Kc8.

Dec-30-08  Castleinthesky: How is the queen in the sac?
Dec-30-08  MrMojo: I first saw a longer sequence, all forced:

35.Qf8+ Kxf8
36.Bh6+ Ke7
37.Bf8+ Kxf8
38.Rd8+ etc.

before I realized that the bishop checks weren't necessary.

I think White got the better of the exchange in this game: The Nf6 allowed him to threaten on both the f and d files--with one less rook! Perhaps Black could have held it together if his rooks hadn't so quickly abandoned the first rank?

Dec-30-08  pyresword: i saw a different sequence that is all forced i believe: 35. Ng8+ Ke8
36. Qf8+ Kxf8
37. Rd8+ Kg7
38: Bh6+ Kh8
39. Nf6#
Dec-30-08  Jason Frost: Black looks winning after 30...c4! no?
Dec-30-08  Eduardo Leon: This one was VERY easy:

35. Qf8+ Kxf8 36. Rd8+

a) 36. ... Ke7 37. Re8#
b) 36. ... Kg7 37. Rg8#

Dec-30-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  beenthere240: doesn't 34....Qxc5+ draw? If white tries to avoid the checks he loses his rook and everything else leads to a draw by repetition.
Dec-30-08  YoungEd: Oops! :) Thanks to those who caught my goof.
Dec-30-08  MaxxLange: the "Arabian Mate" pattern, rotated, with a pawn on the 5th, supporting a knight on the 6th, mating a King on the seventh, with a checking Rook on the 8th rank

so sweet

Dec-30-08  BishopofBlunder: <benveniste>, <YouRang>,

Yes, 35...Rd3 seems to spoil my party. Dang it all! I see no good continuation for white after that.

Dec-30-08  ChessPraxis: Hi MrMojo: You said, "I first saw a longer sequence, all forced:

35.Qf8+ Kxf8
36.Bh6+ Ke7
37.Bf8+ Kxf8
38.Rd8+ etc.

before I realized that the bishop checks weren't necessary."

But not only are the Bishop checks not necessary, they do not lead to checkmate. An important element in the position is that the Bishop is covering the h6 flight square. If you sac the Bishop then Black can escape after the sequence you gave by playing

38. ... Kg7
39. Rg8+ Kh6

and then should win easily.

Dec-30-08  RandomVisitor: <BishopofBlunder>
35.Nxh7 Rd3
36.Rxd3 Qxd3
37.Qf8+ Kd7
38.Qxf7 white might still have a win in a complex ending


click for larger view

1. (2.40): 38...Kc6 39.Qxe6+ Kb5 40.Nf6 Qe2 41.Qb3+ Ka6 42.Qa4+ Kb7 43.Qe4+ Qxe4 44.Nxe4 Kc6 45.e6 Re7 46.Ng5 a5 47.Kg2 b5 48.Bd2 Ra7 49.Kf3 Kd5 50.Kf4

2. (2.40): 38...Kc8 39.Qxe6+ Kb7 40.Nf6 Ka6 41.Qd5 Qe2 42.Qe4 Qxe4 43.Nxe4

3. (3.12): 38...Kd8 39.Qg8+ Kd7 40.Nf6+ Kc6 41.Qxe6+ Kb7 42.Qd5+ Qxd5 43.Nxd5 Rc6 44.Kf2 b5

Dec-30-08  RandomVisitor: There is also:

<35.Qg5> Rd3
36.Rxd3 Qxd3
37.Nd5+ Ke8
38.Nxc7+ Kd7


click for larger view

1. (2.57): 39.Na8 Qe4 40.Nxb6+ axb6 41.Bd2 Qb1+ 42.Kh2 Qa2 43.Qe3 h5 44.Qc3 Ke7 45.Kh3 Qd5 46.Bg5+ Kd7 47.Kh2 Qa2+

2. (2.01): 39.Nxe6 fxe6 40.Qh6 Qd1+ 41.Kf2 Qc2+ 42.Ke3 Qb3+ 43.Ke2 Qb2+ 44.Kf1

3. (1.97): 39.Qf6 Qd1+ 40.Kf2 Qc2+ 41.Kf3 Qd1+ 42.Ke3 Qb3+

Dec-30-08  zdigyigy: 1750 takes on c4.
Dec-30-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  OBIT: 35. Bg5 is a cute try, the idea being 35...Rxg3+ 36. Kh1 Qc6+ 37. Ne4+! White meets a check with a check, how cool is that?! Unfortunately, though, after 37...Rxg5 38. Qxg5+ Kf8!, it appears all White has is a perpetual check.
Dec-31-08  BishopofBlunder: <RandomVisitor>,

Thanks for the help. But that is way too much calculation for a Blunderer like me.

But I do like the Qg5 idea. Some very interesting variations expound from that.

Dec-31-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: For the Tuesday Dec 30, 2008 puzzle solution, White initiates mate-in-three with the Queen sham sacrifice 35. Qf8+!
Jump to page #    (enter # from 1 to 4)
search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
NOTE: You need to pick a username and password to post a reply. Getting your account takes less than a minute, is totally anonymous, and 100% free—plus, it entitles you to features otherwise unavailable. Pick your username now and join the chessgames community!
If you already have an account, you should login now.
Please observe our posting guidelines:
  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, profane, raunchy, or disgusting language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, duplicate or nonsense posts.
  3. No malicious personal attacks, including cyber stalking, systematic antagonism, or gratuitous name-calling of any member Iincludinfgall Admin and Owners or any of their family, friends, associates, or business interests. If you think someone is an idiot, then provide evidence that their reasoning is invalid and/or idiotic, instead of just calling them an idiot. It's a subtle but important distinction, even in political discussions.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No malicious posting of or linking to personal, private, and/or negative information (aka "doxing" or "doxxing") about any member, (including all Admin and Owners) or any of their family, friends, associates, or business interests. This includes all media: text, images, video, audio, or otherwise. Such actions will result in severe sanctions for any violators.
  6. NO TROLLING. Admin and Owners know it when they see it, and sanctions for any trolls will be significant.
  7. Any off-topic posts which distract from the primary topic of discussion are subject to removal.
  8. The use of "sock puppet" accounts to circumvent disciplinary action taken by Moderators is expressly prohibited.
  9. The use of "sock puppet" accounts in an attempt to undermine any side of a debate—or to create a false impression of consensus or support—is prohibited.
  10. All decisions with respect to deleting posts, and any subsequent discipline, are final, and occur at the sole discretion of the Moderators, Admin, and Owners.
  11. Please try to maintain a semblance of civility at all times.
Blow the Whistle See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform a Moderator.

NOTE: Keep all discussion on the topic of this page. This forum is for this specific game and nothing else. If you want to discuss chess in general, or this site, visit the Kibitzer's Café.

Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of Chessgames.com, its employees, or sponsors. All Moderator actions taken are at the sole discretion of the Admin and Owners—who will strive to act fairly and consistently at all times.
Spot an error? Please submit a correction slip and help us eliminate database mistakes!
This game is type: CLASSICAL (Disagree? Please submit a correction slip.)

Featured in the Following Game Collections[what is this?]
35.? (Tuesday, December 30)
from Puzzle of the Day 2008 by Phony Benoni
35.? (Tuesday, December 30)
from POTD Catalan by takchess
Mat op verschillende manieren
from Roemer's favorite games by Roemer
Indian systems
by savya2u
White 35?..
from Guess The Move II by Ercan
35.? (December 30, 2008)
from Tuesday Puzzles, 2004-2010 by Phony Benoni
35. Qf8+!
from Mate (Mate-in-Three) by patzer2


home | about | login | logout | F.A.Q. | your profile | preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | new kibitzing | chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | privacy notice | contact us
Copyright 2001-2019, Chessgames Services LLC