< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 138 OF 816 ·
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Feb-24-17
 | | chancho: This might be of some use in your search, <jnpope>. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt... |
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Feb-24-17
 | | jnpope: Thanks. Silly me, its the same book I referenced earlier on this topic. I missed that quote completely (it's in the preface, not in the first chapter discussing the origin of the world championship. Sergeant gives no attribution for the source of that quote. So the question remains, what was the original source for : <"Here am I, William Steinitz," he is alleged to to have said, "the youngest child of a poor rabbi; and I am Steinitz, the Chess Champion of the World"> I've been leafing through my copies of The Field and I haven't turned up anything. I wonder if this was just some verbal lore that Sergeant wrote in his preface? |
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Feb-24-17 | | zanzibar: (Part 1)
<chancho> very useful indeed, mochas gracias. It does give me another crack at the topic of fake quotes... or elaborated/synthetized/rumorized quotes. <jnpope>'s citations are filled out more properly in a post by <ckr> in a conversation involving <chancho> and <lblai>: Wilhelm Steinitz (kibitz #456) Please read the entire citation if you have time, it is needed for the following posts. |
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Feb-24-17 | | zanzibar: (Part 2)
Allow me to select the following Landsberger passages for comment: <Staunton writes, "... the defeat of the Prussian champion by an antagonist scarcely recognized among the magnates must have appeared incredible .... Mr. Anderssen was beaten because his day for match playing is over ...." The October issue of Chess World wondered about "... the unjust elevation which they would assign to the latter [Steinitz] ... though his claim to be placed in the first rank rests on this match alone" (112). Despite his victory over Anderssen, Steinitz was still not regarded as his equal (3).> It is important to note the manner in which the contemporaneous coverage of a match was interpreted. The 1886 Steinitz--Zukertort match was brazenly publicized by at least the US press as being for the "chess champion of the world". The 1866 Steinitz--Anderssen match was not. Of course, a historian can backfill, as even Steinitz himself did, to the 1866 date. It is significant, and did mark the beginning of the Steinitz dominated era of chess. But Steinitz had more to do to prove himself, and do he did (see the DSZ match record history etc.). <When Morphy previously defeated Anderssen, it was just another chess match. When Steinitz defeated Anderssen he announced that he was the world champion.> I would like to see the "primary" source where Steinitz made the claim for the 1866. Landsberger gives no reference for that claim, and it's my belief that Steinitz himself only backdated his claim long after the actual match. <Nobody objected to his claim, especially since Steinitz was always willing and never hesitant in defending his title (109, 128, etc.).> As I've said, Steinitz was the right person to initiate our grand tradition of a WCC, as author, journalist, player, theorist, and champion. <Morphy would have been entitled to such a title if he would have accepted and won challenges against Paulsen and Kolish. Since he did not care to do this, the question of the championship was left open until the claim of Steinitz (112).> One could argue that Anderssen could also have made a valid claim to the title, given Morphy's self-imposed retirement. Again, his personality alone precluded this. And so his role is one of German champion, and grand man of chess. As Landsberger says, Morphy was entitled, though the he and chess world were denied the Morphy--Staunton match which would have crystallized the title. But Morphy was a strange figure, and his personality was such as to prevent an actual claim of being a world champion. The press, <"Here I am William Steinitz," he is alleged to have said, "the youngest child of a poor rabbi; and I am Steinitz, the Chess Champion of the World" (112) (He was in fact neither the youngest nor the son of a rabbi.)> Let's examine this specific quote in another post. |
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Feb-24-17 | | zanzibar: (Part 3)
<For years to come little was said about the title, until the 1886 Steinitz and Zukertort agreed that the loser would recognize the winner as the world champion (46).> This is certainly *not* true, at least, when reading the American press. In fact, the US press often talked about the chess champion of the world - starting with Morphy of course. But here's an 1885 ref where Steinitz is explicitly referred to "chess champion of the world", from an Australian source(!): <Once a Month: An Illustrated Australasian Magazine ..., v2 (March 15, 1885) p239> <CHESS INTELLIGENCE. We are in receipt of the first number of the "International Chess Magazine," edited in New York by Ilerr Steinitz, the chess champion of the World. It contains an interesting sketch of the career of the late lamented Paul Morphy, games, problems, &c., and a rfaumt of the doings of the chess world both in Europe and America. Steinitz is unrivalled as an analyst and annotator, and his notes to the games alone render the magazine a valuable addition to chess literature. > https://books.google.com/books?id=g... And returning to finish with Landsberger:
<Chess historians seem to agree that Steinitz not only claimed, but also invented this new title. > I would debate the invention of the title, as I've said, and Winter also has shown, many occurrences predate Steinitz's. What Steinitz did was to formalize the process, the laying claim and periodic defending of the title via explicit match play. And that dates to 1886. |
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Feb-24-17
 | | jnpope: <And that dates to 1886.> I think Steinitz would argue that he had been defending the title in match play since 1872. |
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Feb-24-17
 | | jnpope: I'm starting to catalog the lineage of the title. I started with Morphy simply because I had the material sitting in front of me. I plan to go forward and backward covering any mention I can find for those who held the title or were alluded to by more colloquial terms: http://www.chessarch.com/archive/Wo... It appears to me that the British press bestowed the title upon Morphy, it then found its way into the American press which definitely ran with it. I have found zero reference to Morphy ever calling himself the champion of the world (I suspect Victorian modesty prevented such a direct claim, at least until Zukertort proclaimed himself as such in 1884). |
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Feb-25-17 | | zanzibar: <
<jnpope> I think Steinitz would argue that he had been defending the title in match play since 1872.
>
Well, it would be very revealing to actually trace who said what when. Which, in your next post, you seem to indicate will be done. As far as Steinitz attaching extra significance to his 1872 Zukertort match, vs. say, his 1866 Anderssen match, I'd like to see the evidence. I know the American press raised it as a knock against those proclaiming Zukertort the world's best after his 1883 London triumph (where he bested Steinitz, fwiw). This was all part of the reason the 1886 match was so eagerly followed. Most of my research work in the last couple of years has been focused on the history of the early tournaments. I somewhat deliberately avoided the early match history. Still, I encountered a lot of interesting commentary on the strength of various players written by some of the early figures along the way. A lot of my memories are by now a bit vague, given my recent shift to training (i.e. waiting for <CG> to get its act together concerning PGN processing and tournament organization). Still, I stumbled across a few revealing writeups in the past few days research. In particular, Bird, Gossip and Hoffer all wrote extensively on these matters, and we should try to get those articles into the discussion. Sergeant does a good job, but these other writers were actually participants in the history, and good writers each and every one (at least entertaining, if not informative and insightful). I'm gladdened to see <jn> take this topic up - and look forward to helping a little, if possible. |
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Feb-25-17 | | zanzibar: This required reading is well worth the time:
Hoffer's 1886 article on <Chess Masters of To-Day> https://zanchess.wordpress.com/2017... (From FN v46 (1886) p753-765)
It's interesting, even if expected, that he can't bring himself to refer to Steinitz as WCC. But he does say this about the WCC:
<His motto is Toujours prêt, and this makes him the best living match-player.> <If I were to be asked who possesses the combination of all the required faculties in the highest degree for the purposes of practical chess-play, I should answer Steinitz.> . |
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Feb-25-17 | | zanzibar: Of course Harding quotes extensively from Hoffer's article in his various books. Winter actually includes images of the printed pages here: http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... My version has the advantage that it's in plain text, making it much more convenient for cut-and-pasting. On the other hand, Winter includes some of the resulting commentary in the press replying in kind to the article. (Winter's article has been updated fairly recently, Jan 2017. I wonder when it was first published?) |
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Feb-25-17 | | zanzibar: Oh, I should also mention, that publishing the clear text exposes it to the search engines - making the content material much more accessible to the world at large. This is a goal we biographers should strive for as much as possible, imo. |
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Feb-25-17
 | | chancho: I ran into this Steinitz quote (at Edward Winter's site) from Steinitz’s International Chess Magazine: <April 1888, page 86 (Steinitz’s description of himself):‘... The only true champion of the world for the last 22 years (I may say so for once) ...’> So he thought himself champion from 1866 onwards. |
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Feb-25-17 | | zanzibar: A link to the quote:
http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... It would be nice to have the full content of that. Unfortunately, I think that, much like Lasker's magazine, most of the volumes aren't available online. Perhaps these volumes were stolen from the public libraries? I have a hard time believing their acquisition was neglected. The 1888 version is v4, as can be seen here:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei... At least we have the cover. |
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Feb-25-17 | | TheFocus: <zanzibar> <A link to the quote:
http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...
It would be nice to have the full content of that. Unfortunately, I think that, much like Lasker's magazine, most of the volumes aren't available online> From Steinitz's <International Chess Magazine>, Vol. IV, Nos. 3&4, March and April, 1888, in his <PERSONAL AND GENERAL> column, pg. 81-86. <Wherefore I beg to state that in my analysis of the present journalistic gambit I shall not grudge in the least the space of this column to myself or to the public and posterity (as you may judge) in order to follow the editorial burglar of New Orleans step by step, move by move, variation by variation, into the haunts of his shystering arguments, his pettifogging falsehoods and hypocritical conclusions, where he conceals or tries to hide his latest thieving depredations on my private and public character. And I mean to devote to the task, if necessary, the space of this column for the next 12 months, or for as many years, in case of further literary highway robberies perpetuated by the same individual, and provided that I and this journal survive, in order to statuate for all times, or as long as Chess shall live, <an example that the only true champion of the world for the last 22 years (I may say so for once),> who has always defended his Chess prestige against all comers, has also a true regard for true public opinion, and that he can defy single-handed all the lying manufactories of press combinations to show any real stain on his honor; and that he can convict and severely punish any foul-mouthed editor who, like the shystering journalistic advocate of New Orleans, attempts to rob him of his good name outside of the Chess board. But I need not say any more to our readers on the subject in the present number.> |
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Feb-25-17
 | | jnpope: <z>: Here is a digital pic. International Chess Magazine, v4, April 1888, p86: http://www.chessarch.com/archive/ti... |
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Feb-25-17
 | | jnpope: Argghh. <Focus> beat me to it! |
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Feb-25-17
 | | MissScarlett: It's normally <TheFocus> that does the copying. |
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Feb-25-17 | | zanzibar: Thanks <Focus>, good stuff© ! <... into the haunts of his shystering arguments, his pettifogging falsehoods and hypocritical conclusions, where he conceals or tries to hide his latest thieving depredations on my private and public character.> We've got to get this guy over to <Rogoff> - ha. |
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Feb-25-17 | | zanzibar: And thanks <jnpope> - for the page, the whole page, and ... |
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Feb-25-17
 | | jnpope: I've started to fill in what is "known" about the world championship for the 1840-1886 period: http://www.chessarch.com/archive/Wo... I still have a ton of notes I've accumulated over the years so I will be patching data into this time-line over the next few weeks. |
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Feb-25-17 | | zanzibar: Looks like big fun....
Though I think your articles are getting big enough, and detailed enough, that a toc with links (and backlinks!) is in order. |
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Feb-25-17 | | zanzibar: Under <Kolisch> <and good bur rare,> should be <and good but rare,> of course. Just wanted to demonstrate somebody's reading this stuff! |
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Feb-25-17
 | | jnpope: Agreed. And I haven't proofread that material yet, so it should be treated carefully for now. I'll get it proofed tomorrow. |
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Feb-25-17 | | zanzibar: <Chess Tournament At The City Of London Club.> "the <betern> Herr Horwitz" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beturn ? |
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Feb-25-17 | | zanzibar: Calling Blackburne a world champion is understandable, for the British press. But I doubt any other nation would have done so. And it demonstrates why match play is so central to the concept of a valid WCC. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 138 OF 816 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
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