|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 234 OF 235 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Aug-02-10 | | crawfb5: It helps to have a couple of active teammates to keep things moving when the rest of us get distracted with life. |
|
| Aug-02-10 | | chop suey chow mein: 7.g4?, 7.c5 babie xie xie |
|
| Aug-02-10 | | blue wave: <capafan> I don't have much time at the moment. But had a quick look with engine. There doesn't seem to be anything special there for white with 7.Rg1. The move looks to slow and too obvious. <chop suey chow mein> Hi! I don't know if I've seen you post before? Are you saying 7.c5 is the way to go for white? I will say one thing it gives a very different game to the one we had. |
|
| Aug-04-10 | | ronpaz1: <zanshin: <25.Bd2 look for me more solid then e4. how Rybeka evaluate it?>
<ronpaz1> After <21. Bd3 Bg4 22. Qg2 Bf5 23. Qc2 Bxd3 24. Qxd3 Bb4 25. Bd2> [-0.67] d=18 25...Rc8 26.e4 Nc4 27.Bxh6+ Rxh6 28.Rxh6 Nxb2 29.Qh3 Bxc3+ 30.Ke2 Bxd4 31.Rh8+ Bxh8 32.Qxh8+ Ke7 33.Qe5+ Kd7 34.Qxb2 (0:44:58) 76018kN (Rybka 4)> after 21. Bd3 Bg4 22. Qg2 Bf5 23. Qc2 Bxd3 24. Qxd3 Bb4 does the engines give reasonable alternative to 25.e4? |
|
| Aug-04-10 | | zanshin: <ronpaz1: after 21. Bd3 Bg4 22. Qg2 Bf5 23. Qc2 Bxd3 24. Qxd3 Bb4 does the engines give reasonable alternative to 25.e4?> <ronpaz1> After <21. Bd3 Bg4 22. Qg2 Bf5 23. Qc2 Bxd3 24. Qxd3 Bb4> Rybka 4 set to exclude <25.e4>: 
click for larger view [-0.43] d=20 25.Kd1 Rc8 26.e4 Qf6 27.Rf1 Qe6 28.Ne2 Rg4 29.Nf4 Qd7 30.d5 Nxa4 31.Qf3 (0:28:43) 247370kN |
|
Aug-07-10
 | | kutztown46: Concerning black's 17th move:
click for larger view<hms123> posted this analysis on page 232: <Analysis by Stockfish 1.8 JA: 25 ply, dpa 1. (0.28): 17...Bb4 18.Bd2 Rg8 19.f3 Nxe3 20.Bxe3 Nd5 21.Bd2 hxg5 22.Qh2 Be6 23.Qh6+ Rg7 24.Rc1 Rc8 25.Kf2 Be7 26.Bb5 Nc7 27.Be2 Qxd4+ 28.Be3 Qf6 29.Qxf6 Bxf6 30.Bd3 Ne8 31.Nd5 Rxc1 32.Rh8+ Rg8 2. (0.40): 17...Qc7 18.Bd2 Rg8 19.Nb5 Qe7 20.Nxd6 Qxd6 21.f3 Nxe3 22.Bxe3 Nd5 23.Bd2 Nf4 24.Bxf4 Qxf4 25.Qh2 Qxh2 26.Rxh2 hxg5 27.Kf2 Bd7 28.Bd3 Bc6 29.Be4 Rd8 30.Ke3 Ke7 31.Rc2 3. (0.44): 17...Kg7 18.f3 hxg5 19.fxg4 Rxh1 20.Qxh1 Bg3+ 21.Kd2 Bxg4 22.Qe4 Bh5 23.Bd3 Bg6 24.Qf3 Be1+ 25.Kxe1 Bxd3 26.e4 Ba6 27.Be3 Nc4 28.Nd5 Nb6 29.Qg3 Nxd5 30.Bxg5 f6 31.Be3+ Kf8 32.exd5 Qxd5 33.Rc1 4. (0.60): 17...Rg8 18.f3 Nxe3 19.Bxe3 hxg5 20.Bd3 Be6 21.Bh7 Nc4 22.Bg1 Rh8 23.d5 Bd7 24.Ne4 Qe7 25.b3 Ne5 26.Kf1 f6 27.Qh2 Nf7 28.Nxd6 Qxd6 29.Qxd6+ Nxd6 30.Bc5 Kg7 31.Bxd6 Rxh7 32.Rxh7+ Kxh7 33.Bc7 5. (0.64): 17...h5 18.f3 Qxg5 19.fxg4 Qxg4 20.e4 h4 21.Qxg4 Bxg4 22.Be2 f5 23.Be3 Ke7 24.Bg5+ Ke6 25.d5+ Kd7> This week I downloaded Stockfish and am playing through the game. For black's 17th move, after a 12-hour run on my quad, I got the following: Analysis by Stockfish 1.8 JA 64bit (32-ply):
1. = (0.16): 17...Qc7 18.Bd2 Bb4 19.Rc1 Bd7 20.Be2 h5 21.f3 Bc6 22.e4 Re8 23.Rf1 Rg8 24.fxg4 Bxe4 25.Qh3 Nxa4 26.Rf2 Nxc3 27.Kf1 hxg4 28.Bxg4 Qc4+ 29.Kg1 Qd3 30.bxc3 Qxh3 31.Bxh3 Bd6 32.Bg2 b5 33.Rcf1 2. = (0.20): 17...Bb4 18.Bd2 Qc7 19.Rc1 Bd7 20.Be2 h5 21.f3 Bc6 22.e4 Re8 23.Rf1 Rg8 24.fxg4 Bxe4 25.Qh3 Nxa4 26.Rf2 Nxc3 27.Kf1 hxg4 28.Bxg4 Qc4+ 29.Kg1 Qd3 30.bxc3 Qxh3 31.Bxh3 Bd6 32.Bg2 b5 33.Rcf1 3. ² (0.36): 17...Rg8 18.f3 Nxe3 19.Bxe3 hxg5 20.Bd3 Be6 21.Bh7 Nc4 22.Bc1 Rg7 23.d5 Bd7 24.Bd3 Ne5 25.Be2 Rg8 26.Ne4 Bf5 27.Kf1 Be7 28.d6 Bf6 29.Rh6 Bxe4 30.fxe4 g4 31.Bf4 Qxd6 32.Qf2 Rg6 4. ² (0.52): 17...Qxg5 18.f3 h5 19.fxg4 Qxg4 20.e4 h4 21.Qxg4 Bxg4 22.Bh3 Bxh3 23.Rxh3 Ke7 24.e5 Bb4 25.Bg5+ Ke6 26.Ke2 Rh5 27.Be3 Rg8 28.Rf1 Rg6 29.Rf4 Bxc3 30.bxc3 Nd5 31.Rfxh4 Rxh4 32.Rxh4 Nxc3+ 33.Kd3 5. ² (0.52): 17...Kg7 18.f3 hxg5 19.fxg4 Rxh1 20.Qxh1 Bg3+ 21.Kd2 Bxg4 22.Qe4 Bd7 23.Bd3 f5 24.Qxb7 Qc7 25.Qxc7 Bxc7 26.Kc2 Rh8 27.Bd2 Rh2 28.Rg1 g4 29.Kc1 Bb8 30.b3 Be6 31.Bc2 Kf7 32.Kd1 Nd5 33.Nxd5 6. ² (0.64): 17...h5 18.f3 Qxg5 19.e4 Bf4 20.Bxf4 Qxf4 21.fxg4 Bxg4 22.Qf2 Qxf2+ 23.Kxf2 Rd8 24.Ke3 f5 25.e5 Ke7 26.Nb5 Nd5+ 27.Kd2 h4 28.Bd3 h3 29.Raf1 Rhf8 30.Be2 Rh8 31.Bc4 Rhf8 32.Bxd5 In the 32-ply run, 17...Qxg5 has moved back into 4th place. However, the most interesting part to me is that the two analyses agree that black's two best choices were 17...Qc7 and 17...Bb4. I have confirmed that Team Black did not post one word about either of these moves. Team White did discuss 17...Bb4 but I can find no record of 17...Qc7 being discussed by either side. |
|
| Aug-07-10 | | capafan: <kutz><3. ² (0.36): 17...Rg8 18.f3 Nxe3 19.Bxe3 hxg5 20.Bd3 Be6 21.Bh7 Nc4 22.Bc1 Rg7 23.d5 Bd7 24.Bd3 Ne5 25.Be2 Rg8 26.Ne4 Bf5 27.Kf1 Be7 28.d6 Bf6 29.Rh6 Bxe4 30.fxe4 g4 31.Bf4 Qxd6 32.Qf2 Rg6> Not even our line...although I think we discussed this <<18...Nxe3> move. Obviously, 32-ply is not deep enough to match Team Black's foresight. :) I wonder what your computer would say if you forced it to look at 17...Rg8 18.f3 Rxg5 19.fxg4 Rxg4. |
|
Aug-07-10
| | kutztown46: <capa>
I'll get there tomorrow or Monday. |
|
| Aug-07-10 | | AgentRgent: Much as I would love to, I don't have time to go back over the entire combined log. From my recollection the two major moves that I supported that <weren't> played by our team were: 6. Ne5 (which I pushed for pretty hard, though with little success) and 8. h3 (which was also supported by Anatoly21, Artar1, DEEPERGRAY, Eyal, Imag, Gypsy, and jepflast as well). I know those are very early in the game, but after that I got very busy and wasn't able to devote much time to serious analysis |
|
| Aug-08-10 | | capafan: <AgentRgent>
<From my recollection the two major moves that I supported that <weren't> played...8.h3:> B Avrukh vs J Gustafsson, 2009
An interesting game in this line that would have had to be examined. |
|
| Aug-08-10 | | capafan: <AgentRgent>
1.d4 d5
2.c4 e6
3.Nc3 Nf6
4.e3 c6
5.Nf3 Nbd7
6.Qc2 Bd6
7.g4 <h6>
8.h3 e5
[Maybe the key to this variation... Black's timing of e5 is critical to being able to equalize. Although the Avrukh - Gustaffson game followed a different path, e5 played a significant role in equalizing for Black.] 9.cxd5 cxd5
10.dxe5 Nxe5
11.Nxe5 Bxe5
12.Bd2 O-O
13.Bg2 Be6
14.f4 Bxc3
15.Bxc3 Ne4
16.O-O Nxc3
17.Qxc3
[The above was taken from Deep Shredder's Online DB...which shows this line as favoring White based on games played with this variation.] 17...f5 N
click for larger viewI am no endgame expert, however, it is difficult to see how White is better in this position...which is weaker, Black's isolated d-pawn or White's backward e-pawn? Probably ==. |
|
| Aug-08-10 | | AgentRgent: <Capafan> I was thinking more along the lines of Mamedyarov vs E Najer, 2009 |
|
Aug-08-10
| | kutztown46: <capafan>
After 19...Rxg4
click for larger viewAnalysis by Stockfish 1.8 JA 64bit (33-ply):
1. ² (0.64): 20.Qf3 Rg3 21.Qf2 Rg6 22.Kd2 Bg3 23.Qf3 2. = (-0.24): 20.Qe2 Be6 21.Rxh6 Qg5 22.Rxe6 fxe6 23.Bd2 Kg7 24.0-0-0 Rc8 25.Qf3 Nxa4 26.Qxb7+ Rc7 27.Qb3 Nxc3 28.bxc3 e5 29.Qe6 Qg6 30.Qxg6+ Kxg6 31.c4 exd4 32.exd4 Rxd4 33.Bxa5 Bf4+ 34.Kc2 Rxd1 35.Kxd1 Ra7 Too bad about the truncated first line. Because pv was only 2 in this case, my comp got to 33-ply in about 6 hours. I am continuing to slide forward with Stockfish. I'll post more of the interesting moves at high ply. |
|
| Aug-08-10 | | capafan: <kutz>Maybe <zanshin> can take a look with Rybka 4...I do not see the advantage for white that Stockfish is seeing in your first line. I have also noted that 32-ply with Stockfish is not the same as 32-ply with some of the other computer software. <AgentRgent>This is a good game and certainly Shark found a better way for white than Avrukh in the game I noted; however, I am not yet convinced it provides white an advantage...another <better> try for black may have been to mix it up in the center with 9...e4 before white has an opportunity for g5. What else have you examined? I would be curious as to what <zsyodd> has in his database for CC games with this continuation. |
|
| Aug-08-10 | | ronpaz1: Thx <zanshin> now I am quit sure that White was allready in troubles after Black's 20 move. |
|
| Aug-08-10 | | capafan: <kutz>Maybe we will never be given a line by the computers that will bestow upon us that aha! moment. <zanshin> is probably correct in that we should not try to overanalyze the issue of 17...Rg8, but suffice it to say that it gives humans and computers both difficulty because of the temptation to take black's b-pawn, which QED is poison. |
|
| Aug-08-10 | | AgentRgent: <capafan: another <better> try for black may have been to mix it up in the center with 9...e4 before white has an opportunity for g5.> I'm not sure that 9...e4 really gains black much other than future liabilities e.g. either backward d pawn after cxd cxd or an isolated e pawn after an eventual ...dxc by black. Interestingly enough I could find only one game with that continuation (Rout v Wood, Belconnen AUS 1996 1-0). I think that 10. Nh4 with thoughts of Nf5 or Ng2 & Nf4 after provoking the weakening ...g6 are sufficient to give white a slight advantage although there's certainly a lot of game left. <I would be curious as to what <zsyodd> has in his database for CC games with this continuation.> As would I. |
|
Aug-08-10
| | kutztown46: After 20...Rg6
click for larger viewAnalysis by Stockfish 1.8 JA 64bit (28/29-ply):
1. = (0.20): 21.Be2 Be6 22.Bd3 Bg4 23.Qg2 Bf5 24.Qc2 Bg3+ 25.Kd1 Bg4+ 26.Be2 Bxe2+ 27.Qxe2 Rc8 28.Rf1 Qc7 29.Kc2 Nd5 30.Bd2 Nb4+ 31.Kb1 Bh4 32.Ra3 Qc6 33.e4 Bg5 34.Be3 Qc4 35.Qxc4 Rxc4 36.Bg1 h5 2. = (0.16): 21.Bd3 Bg4 22.Qg2 Bf5 23.Qc2 Bg3+ 24.Kd1 Bg4+ 25.Be2 Bxe2+ 26.Qxe2 Rc8 27.Rf1 Qc7 28.Kc2 Nd5 29.Bd2 Nb4+ 30.Kb1 Bh4 31.Ra3 Qc6 32.e4 Bg5 33.Be3 Qc4 34.Qxc4 Rxc4 35.Bg1 Ke7 36.Nb5 Rc1+ 3. = (0.00): 21.Kd2 Bg4 22.Qf2 Bb4 23.Bd3 Rf6 24.Qh4 h5 25.Be2 Rg6 26.Qxd8+ Rxd8 27.Kd3 Bf5+ 28.Kd2 Bg4 4. ³ (-0.40): 21.Qe4 Qc7 22.Bd3 Bg4 23.Qg2 f5 24.Rg1 Kg7 25.Bd2 Bb4 26.Nd1 Rg5 27.Qf2 Qe7 28.Nc3 Rc8 29.Qf4 Bd6 30.Qf2 Nc4 31.Bxc4 Rxc4 ===
5. ³ (-0.36): 21.Bb5 Bg4 22.Qf2 Qc7 23.Ne4
6. ³ (-0.44): 21.Bh3 Bb4 22.Rf1 Qc7 23.e4 Bxh3 24.Qxh3 Kg8 25.Bd2 Rc8 26.d5 Re8 This does little to resolve the 21. Be2 vs. 21. Bd3 debate. It is interesting, however, that we had
(0.64/33): 20.Qf3 Rg3 21.Qf2 Rg6 22.Kd2 Bg3 23.Qf3
then
(0.36/29): 20...Rg6 21.Bd3 Bg4 22.Qf2 Rf6 23.Qh4 h5 24.Be2 Rg6 25.Bxg4 Qxh4+ 26.Rxh4 Bg3+ 27.Ke2 Bxh4 28.Bxh5 Rg1 29.b3 Ke8 30.Kd3 Nd7 31.Bf3 Rd8 32.Nd5 Nb8 33.Bb2 Rxa1 34.Bxa1 f5 35.Nf4 Nc6 36.Ne6 and then the lines and evals shown for white's 21st move. The evals are getting less and less favorable for white and the poisoned pawn at b7 seems to have nothing to do with it. |
|
| Aug-08-10 | | capafan: <AgentRgent>< I think that 10. Nh4 with thoughts of Nf5 or Ng2 & Nf4 after provoking the weakening ...g6 are sufficient to give white a slight advantage although there's certainly a lot of game left.> I did not have g6 in mind but Nb8 instead.
9...e4
10.Nh4 Nb8
11.cxd5 cxd5
12.Qb3 Bc7
13.Nf5 Bxf5
14.gxf5 Bb6
15.Bg2 Nc6
16.f3 exf3
17.Bxf3 Ne7
click for larger viewWhite is fully developed but castling is tricky as yet, same could be said of black....but again that is the nature of the opening. Slight edge to white, but as you said, still no major weaknesses and a lot of play for both sides. You might have improvements for white...I will see what Shredder/Houdini/Rybka have to say. |
|
| Aug-08-10 | | AgentRgent: <capafan: I did not have g6 in mind but Nb8 instead. 9...e4
10.Nh4 Nb8
11.cxd5 cxd5
12.Qb3 Bc7
13.Nf5 Bxf5>
Instead of 14. gxf5 doesn't white have the strong intermezzo 14. Qxb7!? Nbd7 and then 15. gxf5 follows? I think 13...Rg8 is required which means black's king is going to have trouble finding safety on either side of the board (or in the center for that matter). |
|
| Aug-09-10 | | capafan: <AgentRgent>< AgentRgent: <capafan: I did not have g6 in mind but Nb8 instead. 9...e4
10.Nh4 Nb8
11.cxd5 cxd5
12.Qb3 Bc7
13.Nf5 Bxf5>
Instead of 14. gxf5 doesn't white have the strong intermezzo 14. Qxb7!? Nbd7 and then 15. gxf5 follows?> Alas, you are correct and the silicon monsters do not approve of my 8...e5 9.Bd2 e4 either. (Although, to my dismay, I did note that <DanLanglois> also liked 8...e5 in answer to 8.h3. :) The Shredder Online DB gives this instead:
8.h3 dxc4
9.Bxc4 b5
10.Be2 Bb7
11.e4 b4
12.Na4 Be7
13.Be3 c5
14.Nxc5 Bxc5
15.dxc5 Bxe4
16.Qc4 Qc7
click for larger viewEven, but a much easier game for white IMHO compared to 8.Rh1 as all the pressure is on black. |
|
Aug-10-10
| | kutztown46: After 21...Bg4
click for larger viewAnalysis by Stockfish 1.8 JA 64bit (32-ply):
1. = (0.00): 22.Qxb7 Rb8 23.Qe4 Be6 24.Rf1 Kg8 25.Bd3 Bh3 26.Rxf7 Rg1+ 27.Rf1 Bxf1 28.Qh7+ Kf8 29.Qxh6+ Ke7 30.Qh7+ Kf8 31.Qf5+ Kg7 32.Qh7+ Kf8 2. = (0.00): 22.Qe4 Bxe2 23.Kxe2 Qc8 24.d5 Rg4 25.Rxh6 Rxe4 26.Rh8+ Ke7 27.Rxc8 Rxc8 28.Nxe4 Be5 29.Bd2 Nxd5 30.Bxa5 Rc2+ 31.Kd3 Rxb2 32.Rh1 Ra2 33.Rb1 Ra3+ 34.Kd2 Rxa4 35.Rxb7+ Kf8 36.Rb5 Rxe4 37.Rxd5 Ke7 3. = (-0.20): 22.Qf2 Bxe2 23.Kxe2 Qc8 24.Kd1 Bb4 25.Rf1 Qc4 26.Qe2 Qb3+ 27.Qc2 Qe6 28.Qf5 4. µ (-1.01): 22.Qg2 Bxe2 23.Qxe2 Rc8 24.Qd3 Bb4 25.e4 Qd6 26.Rf1 Rg3 27.Bxh6+ Ke7 28.e5 Qxe5+ 29.Qe2 Qe6 30.Qxe6+ Kxe6 31.Kf2 Rcg8 32.Rae1+ Kd7 33.Rb1 R8g6 34.Bf4 Rh3 35.Ke2 f5 At 32-ply, Stockfish sees no danger in taking the b7 pawn. |
|
| Aug-10-10 | | AgentRgent: <kutztown46> Although Stockfish deviates from the game with 24...Kg8 (vs Kg7) it seems to miss 25...Nd5! I wonder what it would say if it were shown that move. |
|
Aug-10-10
| | kutztown46: <AgentRgent>
I am playing through the entire game with Stockfish, so within the next several days I will have your answer. |
|
Aug-12-10
| | kutztown46: After 23. Qe4
click for larger viewAnalysis by Stockfish 1.8 JA 64bit (31-ply):
1. = (-0.08): 23...Be6 24.Rf1 Kg7 25.Bd2 Nc4 26.0-0-0 Nxb2 27.d5 Bh3 28.Bh5 Qg5 29.Bxg6 fxg6 30.Qd4+ Qe5 31.Nb5 Qxd4 32.exd4 Nxd1 33.Rxd1 Bb4 34.Bxh6+ Kxh6 35.Rh1 g5 36.Rxh3+ Kg6 37.Kc2 g4 38.Re3 2. = (0.00): 23...Nd7 24.Qc2 Bg3+ 25.Kd2 Bxe2 26.Kxe2 Qc8 27.Rf1 Nf6 28.Rb1 h5 29.b3 Bd6 30.Kd1 h4 31.Nb5 Qg4+ 32.Qe2 Qe4 33.Rb2 Bb4 34.Qc4 Qg4+ 35.Qe2 Qe4 3. = (0.00): 23...Bxe2 24.Nxe2 Nc4 25.Rf1 Rf6 26.Nf4 Nxb2 27.Nd5 Rxf1+ 28.Kxf1 Qc8 29.Nf6 Qh3+ 30.Qg2 Qf5+ 31.Qf2 Qh3+ 32.Qg2 4. ² (0.48): 23...f5 24.Qd3 Kg7 25.Bd2 Qc7 26.Bxg4 fxg4 27.Nb5 Qc6 28.Rh5 Bg3+ 29.Kd1 Qc4 30.Qxc4 Nxc4 31.d5 Be5 32.Ke2 Bxb2 33.Rg1 Nxd2 34.Kxd2 g3 35.Nc7 Rg4 36.d6 Rg6 37.Nd5 Rd8 38.Ke2 Rdxd6 39.Ne7 This is the first point in the middle game where Stockfish gives black an edge. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 234 OF 235 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
WARNING ABOUT COMPUTER USE:
The use of chess playing computers is strictly prohibited during this game. You may not
post computer analysis or evaluations to the Kibitzer's Corner, or
consult chess playing computer software, including endgame tablebases, to help you decide on a move.
Anybody violating this rule will be suspended from the game.
Chess databases (such as chessgames.com) and reference materials are permitted.
Thank you for preserving the integrity of this contest.
