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| Sep-24-06 | | gauer: As far as the Abiline paradox and voting goes, would the idea of using a distributed vote-weight system be any better here? ie take 100 points, and each user weights some/all choices (integers between 0 and 100) that they may be inclined to try, relative to the try-move picked of the group. I keep picking "offer draw" in the hopes that we successfully submit this choice early, before our position gets any worse. Maybe for the next tournament, chessgames will try this idea and the usage of if-moves. |
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| Sep-24-06 | | NateDawg: Here is more analysis by Fritz 9 and Crafty 19.19 on the variation with 11.a5 ♘f6 12.♘c3 11.a5 ♘f6 12.♘c3 ♗d7 13.f4 ♘xd3 14.♘xd3 0-0 15.♗e3 ♗c6 16.f5! 
click for larger viewBlack has several replies, all of which give White an advantage. a) 16...exf5 17.exf5 ♖e8 18.♗b6 ♕d7  (1.45)
b) 16...gxf5 17.exf5 ♔h8 18.fxe6 ♖g8 19.♖f2 fxe6 20.♘d4 e5 21.♘xc6 bxc6  (0.66) c) 16...♘g4 17.♗b6 ♕d7 18.♖ad1  (1.22)
d) 16...♕d7 17.♖ad1 ♖fc8 18.fxe6 fxe6 (1.16)
e) 16...♔h8 17.♗h6 ♖g8 18.fxe6 fxe6 19.♘d4 ♗d7 (0.97) |
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| Sep-24-06 | | Oregon104: blah blah blah let's just play chess, real men don't analyze boring tactics they just play what feels good and win. by the way, that's a quote from kasparov in '85. |
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| Sep-24-06 | | kotsinta: NateDawg: move 14 is illegal. QxN mayb.
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| Sep-24-06 | | patzer2: For those of you relying on computer analysis, you might compare the results above for the deep analysis after 11. a5 Nf6 12. Nc3 by <natedawg> with the deep analysis of 11. Nc3 provided by <Random Visitor>. It's not an exact comparison on different engines, and at different dept, but it's evidence to confirm my belief that the 11. a5 Nf6 12. Nc3 method is stronger than the immediate 11. Nc3 =. |
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| Sep-24-06 | | percyblakeney: 11. a5 is definitely my move here. |
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| Sep-24-06 | | midknightblue: This would be a lot more fun if no computers were allowed. I do not feel any intellectual challenge to putting a bunch of lines into fritz and picking the best one. |
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Sep-24-06
 | | kwgurge: Once again it appears that the move we play here will be whatever is the second choice of the third place move voters when they switch at the last minute. |
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| Sep-24-06 | | NateDawg: Another possibility is 11.a5 ♘f6 12.♘c3 ♗d7 13.♗e3 ♗c6 14.♗b6 ♕d7 15.♖ad1 0-0 16.♘d4 ♖ac8 17.f4 ♘xd3 18.♖xd3 d5 19.e5 ♘e4 20.♘xe4 dxe4 21.♖e3 ♗b5 22.♘xb5 ♕xb5 23.♕xb5 axb5 24.c3 (1.04)
click for larger viewThis logical variation is why I think 11.a5 followed by 12.♘c3 is best. The main problem with 11.♘a3 is that Black will play ...d5 eventually, and then White's knight cannot be at c4. Also, a bishop at b6 is better than a knight at b6 for the simple reason that it protects the a-pawn, leaving the rooks free to roam. And 11.a5 is better than 11.♘c3 because the latter does not prevent Black from playing ...b6. Anyone who has chess software is welcome and encouraged to go over these variations. |
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| Sep-24-06 | | Montreal1666: in the games like this:
C Lutz vs Epishin, 2001
that some people have reffered to as support for 11.a5 , white barely manages to get a draw. What good is that for? |
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Sep-24-06
 | | Ron: Now Nc3 is in the lead. Where are these voters coming from? |
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Sep-24-06
 | | Domdaniel: The computer lines just aren't very good - Rybka, Fritz, any of them. Oh, they're all plausible moves - and the engines would beat 99% of us 99% of the time, at least in OTB play. But they're incoherent - somebody like Nickel can just pick such moves apart. I suspect quite a few of us could, too, with 48 hours per move, if we had the confidence and the use of a 2nd engine as a blundercheck. Human positional understanding - the instinct that tells me a knight on c3 is misplaced, for example - is still better than engines. (I'm not pretending I am, though I've beaten a few... at slow time limits.) Arguments for 11.Na3 available at my forum. |
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| Sep-24-06 | | patzer2: <SniperOnG7> The idea is not to play 11. a5 as a waiting move, but to gain control and restrict Black on the Queenside. Or to put it another way to quickly play 11. a5 so we can "get it while the getting's good." If we were looking for quick development to overwhelm the White position with an attack, then 10. Nc3 was a consideration. However, after 10. a4 with a plan of controlling the Queenside, the consistent, proven and best followup is 11. a5. It's the plan chosen by GMs facing this situation before, and a good example IMO of one of the better strategic oong-range planning choices in the openings that separates Masters from amateurs. |
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| Sep-24-06 | | NateDawg: <Montreal1666> White should meet 14...♘xd3 with 15.♕xd3. Then after 15...e5 16.f4 White has a large advatange (1.41) according to Fritz 9.
click for larger view |
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| Sep-24-06 | | patzer2: Notice that in <Random Visitor>'s best 24-ply Rybka line for 11. Nc3 Bd7 12. a5, that an early 12. a5 still comes into play in that line. However, Nickel could restrict that plan, so I suggest the early, tested and proven 11. a5 is best at this point. |
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| Sep-24-06 | | radu stancu: I haven't voted for a4 before, wanting to go on with a c4 and start putting that space advantage to good use. My second choice was Nc3 with f4 in the future and center and kingside play. But ('cause there's a but, and if you haven't seen it coming, well...); but! We played a4. The objective is to prevent black from getting counterplay on the queenside. My impression is that we haven't reached that goal yet, and following this with a5 would be the natural continuation of the plan. Nc3 now seems like changing plans before the previous one was completed. We don't seem to do anything about either cramping black's queenside or making him decide on what he wants to do with the e5 knight. Na3 also seems to be a change in plans, but it does take into account black's recent Ne5. I wonder if black can answer with b6, I'll give it some thought tomorrow. If I'm missing something obvious, or if anyone has analysis on the answer b6, please post it. :) <Domdaniel> I've seen you posted analysis on Na3 on your forum, I'll take a look at it tomorrow. Until then, no commitment from me. :) |
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| Sep-24-06 | | Castle In The Sky: <patzer2> I looked at your Yermo game and the difference between that game and here is that white did not play a4 until much later in the game when it was too late. Nevertheless, I am casting my vote for a5 because it is a good prophylactic move, although we are still deep in book play. The games I looked at indicate that black in all likelihood will play 11...♘f6, with the intent on castling kingside. If he doesn't, then 11. a5, prevents a surprise 11...b5. White can still play ♘c3 in move 12. Hence, my vote. |
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| Sep-24-06 | | NateDawg: <I suggest the early, tested and proven 11. a5 is best at this point.> Absolutely. This forces Black to develop his queenside bishop at d7 and then probably c6, where it be exchanged for a White knight by ♘d4. Many people are worried about White losing his bishop for Black's knight, so this is another reason 11.a5 is best. |
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| Sep-24-06 | | sitzkrieg: what happens on f4? |
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| Sep-24-06 | | Montreal1666: <NateDawg> Ok, thanks |
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| Sep-24-06 | | patzer2: <Oregon104> Just curious. Do they let you use computers in science, math and statistics classes at the University of Oregon? Or do you just figure it all out in your head? |
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| Sep-24-06 | | Thorsson: <RookFile: There is a point to a4 and a5. It is this. What is it that could be absolutely murderous for black? The answer is.... b7-b5, and Bc8 to b7> I'm not sure which way you mean that. But a4 was supposed to stop b5 (which it does). Why do we therefore need a5? a5 might deter b6, but Black can develop the Bishop by Bc8-d7-c6, which takes only the same two moves (so relatively he does it a move quicker). 4 GMs have played a5 against 4 GMs. "They've held their own". Are you admitting that a4 was so weak that equality is now the best we can hope for? |
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| Sep-24-06 | | NateDawg: <Thorsson> A bishop at c6 can be eliminated by ♘d4, while one at b7 could not. |
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| Sep-24-06 | | NateDawg: Here's one more line to show the dominance of the 11.a5 12.♘c3 plan. 11.a5 ♗f6 12.♘c3 ♘e7 13.♗e3 0-0 14.♗b6 ♕d7 15.f4 ♘xd3 16.♕xd3 
click for larger viewFritz 9 gives this position (1.48). If anyone has a better plan, I would like to hear it. Honestly! |
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| Sep-24-06 | | Thorsson: <NateDawg: A bishop at c6 can be eliminated by d4, while one at b7 could not.> So we eliminate his W-sq Bishop and he does the same to use. Always good for the cramped side to exchange pieces. And Fritz overestimates White's position here. It's the one engine that we should defintely not be using. And it's also playing bad moves for Black. One example. You quote: 11.a5 Nf6 12.Nc3 Bd7 13.f4 Nxd3 14.Qxd3 0-0 15.Be3 Bc6 16.f5 etc., but Black will play 14...Bc6 15.Be3 d5 and his worries are over. |
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