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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
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| Feb-12-17 | | mel gibson: < offramp: <melgibson> surely 19. Nf5 is worth more than one dollar.> OK $2 |
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| Feb-12-17 | | mel gibson: < WorstPlayerEver: <mel gibson> Better throw that engine away 😊> No way buddy.
It's so smart - except for long term positional
views - it's better than a grandmaster. |
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| Feb-12-17 | | adbat: better 29.Qg4/Ne6;30.Rg1/Ng5;31.Qg5/Re5;32.Qg6/Qg8;33.f-
g8+/Rg8;34.Qg8++ |
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| Feb-12-17 | | Marmot PFL: < Is this book or preparation??> With Tate neither one was necessary. |
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| Feb-12-17 | | WorstPlayerEver: <mel gibson>
Of course, but you have to let them evaluate for a while. In your variation with Qc8-b7, S8 answers with c2-c4. |
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Feb-12-17
 | | sleepyirv: I know I could never be a Tal or a Kasparov. But couldn't I get to be a Tate? Yeash, this was some kind of attack. |
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| Feb-12-17 | | ChessHigherCat: <adbat: better 29.Qg4/Ne6;30.Rg1/Ng5;31.Qg5/Re5;32.Qg6/Qg8;33.f-
- g8+/Rg8;34.Qg8++>
That's interesting. I wanted to play 29. Qg5 but I didn't see any follow-up after Ne6, which attacks the Q on g5. The Q on g4 gives you the time to play 30. Rg1 |
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| Feb-12-17 | | YouRang: In short, I worked on this puzzle and didn't see a move better than 19.Nxa4 before checking with the computer. Arguably, the move played, <19.Nf5>, can be called the 'better move', but it's not that much better. It's certainly not a game winner. Black just blundered later with <22...Nab6?>, overlooking the kingside attack 23.Rh3! Black should have spoiled that attack with 22...g6 23.fxg6 fxg6 24.Qh3, and THEN play 24..Nab6. ~~~~
Even so, we can appreciate white's forethought here: Choosing a knight sac (19.Nf5) specifically because the followup with the other N (20.Nd5) opens the 3rd rank for bringing the rook across the board to engage in a kingside attack. So, even though it's not a crushing move, it's a smart move that produced a better game for white. BTW, even if black had found the better line above: <22...g6 23.fxg6 fxg6 24.Qh3 24...Nab6>...
click for larger view
...white still recovers the piece after <25.Qb3! Nxd5 26.Qxd5+ Kh8 27.Bb2+ Ne5 28.f4>
click for larger view
The Ne5 must fall and material will be even, but white has the better game because fxe5 will open the f-file for white's rook, and black's king is more exposed. Generally, white's pieces have much more mobility and attack potential than black's pieces. ~~~~
Good puzzle, and you do have to be insanely good to envision all of this. Anyway, not all elaborate combinations lead to a "crushing win"; sometimes they merely yield a "better position". It's just as impressive, and in some ways even more impressive. |
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| Feb-12-17 | | patzer2: Emory Tate was one of the greatest African-Americans Chess players of all time. He was a creative and innovative player, who relied almost exclusively on his own intellect and natural talent. His son said he never saw his dad pick up a Chess book, and he shunned computers. Relying almost exclusively on his naturally honed tactical ability and aggressive attacking play, Tate collected over 80 GM scalps during his chess career. Emory Tate was a US Air Force veteran (Staff Sergeant and Russian Linguist) who, as a five time Armed Forces Chess Champion, was revered in US military chess circles. I had not heard until now of the death of Emory Tate on October 15, 2015 at the age of 56, and was saddened to hear he had passed away after being rushed to a hospital from a chess tournament a couple of years ago. The game selected for today's Sunday puzzle (19. ?) is said to be the one Tate considers to be his finest win over a strong GM. It is indeed a superb tactical gem, reflective of Tate's extraordinary tactical skill and creativity. |
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Feb-12-17
 | | Fusilli: <YouRang> <So, even though it's not a crushing move, it's a smart move that produced a better game for white.> True, and there is also the psychological effect. It puts black in the defensive, and it makes black's game difficult to play, whatever the computer says. We are humans and we prefer certain positions over others. Discomfort makes us play worse. Computers are immune to that. |
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| Feb-12-17 | | Marmot PFL: BTW, even if black had found the better line above: <22...g6 23.fxg6 fxg6 24.Qh3 24...Nab6>... ...white still recovers the piece after <25.Qb3! Nxd5 26.Qxd5+ Kh8 27.Bb2+ Ne5 28.f4> 24 Qh3 allows black to return the piece and simplify the position with 24...Bxg5. 24 Qg4 seems more promising, when white still regains the piece as 24...Nab6 25 Nxb6 Nxb6? loses to 26 Qe6+ |
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| Feb-12-17 | | Marmot PFL: I imagine that Tate went over games by Tal and Fischer as this game is similar to some of theirs in the Sozin attack. |
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| Feb-12-17 | | Granny O Doul: I imagine you're right, as it is a rare IM who has never gone over any Fischer or Tal games. |
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| Feb-12-17 | | YouRang: <Marmot PFL: BTW, even if black had found the better line above: <22...g6 23.fxg6 fxg6 24.Qh3 24...Nab6>...
...white still recovers the piece after <25.Qb3! Nxd5 26.Qxd5+ Kh8 27.Bb2+ Ne5 28.f4> 24 Qh3 allows black to return the piece and simplify the position with 24...Bxg5. 24 Qg4 seems more promising, when white still regains the piece as 24...Nab6 25 Nxb6 Nxb6? loses to 26 Qe6+> Checking with the engine, 24.Qh3 Bxg5 25.f4! leaves white significantly better. It's hard to say if 24.Qg4 is any better than 24.Qh3. If 24.Qg4 Nab6 25.Nxb6 Qxb6. White recovers the piece in any case, but the question is whether the deeper ensuing position is better. My engine isn't seeing it: Stockfish_16090917_x64_modern @ 37 ply:
+0.78 24.Qh3 Nab6 25.Qb3 Nxd5 26.Qxd5+ Kh8 27.Bb2+ Ne5
+0.64 24.Qg4 Nab6 25.Nxb6 Qxb6 26.Qe6+ Kh8 27.Qxd7 Qxb4
+0.29 24.Qf3 Bxg5 25.Bxg5 Qxg5 26.Rxa4 Rf8 27.Qg2 Qd8
+0.05 24.Qh4 Qc8 25.Rxa4 Qc6 26.Qe4 Qxa4 27.Nxe7+ Kf7 |
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| Feb-12-17 | | RandomVisitor: After 18...Na4
click for larger viewKomodo-10.1-64bit:
+0.47/43 19.Nf5 exf5 20.Nd5 Qd8 21.exf5 <Bxg5> 22.Bxg5 Qxg5 23.Rg1 Qh6 24.Rxa4 Nf6 25.Qe3 Qxe3 26.Nxf6+ Kh8 27.fxe3 gxf6 28.c4 Rab8 29.Rc1 Rg8 30.Rxa6 Rxb4 31.Rxd6 Rb2 32.Rg1 Rc2 33.Rd4 Re2 34.Rxg8+ Kxg8 35.Re4 Rf2 36.Kg1 Rxf5 37.Kg2 Kg7 38.Rg4+ Kf8 39.Rf4 Re5 40.Kf3 Rh5 41.h4 Ke7 42.Ke4 Ke6 43.Kd4 Ra5 44.e4 Ra1 45.Rf5 Rd1+ 46.Kc5 Rc1 47.Kb5 |
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| Feb-12-17 | | Marmot PFL: <+0.64 24.Qg4 Nab6 25.Nxb6 Qxb6 26.Qe6+ Kh8 27.Qxd7 Qxb4 > Try reversing the moves - 26 Qxd7 now if Qxb4 27 Qe6+ Kh8 28 Rb3 and 29 Bb2+. Black could stop Qe6+ with 27...Bf8 and after 28 Bd2 white is a pawn up, but I am not sure he can use or even keep it. <Checking with the engine, 24.Qh3 Bxg5 25.f4! leaves white significantly better.> Don't have stockfish but didn't see that much for white after 25...Bh4 26 Rxa4 Nb6 and Nxd5 At any rate it seems that black had to play 22...g6 and would still have to defend well to hold the game. |
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| Feb-12-17 | | agb2002: The material is identical.
Black threatens Nxc3 and Qxd4.
White has Nxa4, Rxa4, Nd5, Nf5, Be3, etc.
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The first idea that comes to mind is 19.Nxa4 Qxd4 20.Bb2 Qxb4 and White is a pawn down and has many pieces attacked (Ra3, Na4, Bb2, Pe4, Pg5). -----
In the case of 19.Rxa4 Qxd4 20.Bb2 Nb6 doesn't look very clear. -----
Another option is 19.Nd5:
A) 19... Qxd4 20.Nxe7+ Kh8 21.Rxa4
A.1) 21... Qb6 22.Be3 Qb7 (22... Qb5 23.Qxb5 axb5 24.Rxa8 Rxa8 25.Nc6 + - [B]) 23.f3 A.1.a) 23... Nb8 24.Rfa1 Qxe7 25.b5 wins an important pawn (25... axb5 26.Rxa8). A.1.b) 23... Ne5 24.Rfa1 with the same idea. For example, 24... f5 (24... Rab8 25.Qxa6) 25.Rxa6 Rxa6 26.Qxa6 Qxb4 27.Nc6 Nxc6 28.Qxc6 wins a piece (the fork 28... Qc3 is not feasible). A.2) 21... Nb8 22.f3 with same idea (Be3, Rfa1, b5). B) 19... exd5 20.Nf5
B.1) 20... Qb5 21.Qxb5 axb5 22.Nxe7+ Kh8 23.Nxd5 +/ - [B+P vs N]. B.2) 20... Bxg5 21.Bxg5 Qxb4 22.Ne7+ Kh8 23.Rg3 Qxe4+ 24.Qxe4 dxe4 25.Bh6 B.2.a) 25...g6 26.Bxf8 followed by Nxd6 [R vs N+2P] looks good for White due to the passed c-pawn. B.2.b) 25... Rfc8 26.Rxg7+ Kh8 (26... Kf8 27.Rg8+ Kxg8 28.Rg1+ Kh8 29.Bg7+ Kg8 30.Ne7(h6)#) 27.Rxf7 Rg8 (27... Ne5 28.Bg7+ Kg8 29.Nh6#) 28.Rxd7 wins decisive material. -----
I'm not sure and don't have time for more. I'd probably play 19.Nd5. |
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| Feb-12-17 | | patzer2: Here's my look at today's 19. Nf5! solution with Deep Fritz 15: <19. Nf5!! exf5> White offers a positional sacrifice of the Knight to generate attacking chances against Black's King. With perfect defense by Black, White gets a slight edge. With any misstep, Black gets crushed. If 19... Nxc3, White has a winning advantage after 20. Nxe7+ Kh8 21. Rxc3  (+2.50 @ 27 depth, Stockfish 6) <20. Nd5 Qd8 21. exf5> The passive 21. Rxa4 gives Black fully level changes after 21...Nb6 22. Rxa6 Rxa6 = (0.16 @ 20 depth, Deep Fritz 15.) <21... Re8>
If 21... Nab6, White wins after 22. Nxe7+ when play might continue 22...Kh8 23. Rh3 h6 24. gxh6 g6 25. fxg6 Ne5 26. g7+ Kh7 27. Qe4+ f5 28. Nxf5 d5 29. gxf8=Q Qxf8 30. Qxe5 #8 to follow. <22. Qh5!> Once again White correctly prefers an aggressive attacking move over immediately capturing a piece. If 22. Rxa4, which is still too passive, Black equalizes after 22... Nab6 23. Ra5 Nxd5 = (0.00 @ 23 depth, Deep Fritz 15) <22...Nab6?>  (-5.62 @ 34 depth, Stockfish 8) This is the losing move. Instead, the computers indicate Black might survive after 22... g6 when play might continue 23. fxg6 fxg6 24. Qg4 Nab6 25. Nxb6 Qxb6 (not 25...Nxb6? 26. Qe6+ Kg7 27. Bb2+ Bf6 28. Bxf6+ Kf8 29. Bxd8 Rxe6 30. Bxb6 ) 26. Qe6+ Kh8 27. Qxd7 Qxb4 28. Re3 Rad8 29. Qc6 Rc8 30. Qxa6 Bf8 31. Rd1  (0.74 @ 22 depth, Deep Fritz 15) White still has a slight advantage in this line after 22...g6, but it's better than losing outright with 22...Nab6? <23. Rh3 Nf8 24. f6 Nxd5 25. fxg7 Kxg7 26. Bb2+ Kg8 27. g6 Bf6 28. gxf7+ Kh8 29. Rg1> This works, but as the game notes indicate an even prettier win is 29. Qg5! forcing mate-in-12. <29...Re1 30. Rxe1 Bxb2 31. Re8 Nf6 32. Rxd8 Rxd8 33. Qh6 Ne4 34. Qh4!1 Nf6 35. Rg3 N8d7 36. Qg5 1-0> Black resigns as he can only delay mate for two or three moves (e.g. 37. Qxg8+ Nxg8 38. Rxg8# or 36...Ng4 37. Rxg4 Bf6 38. Qg8+ Rxg8 39. Rxg8#) P.S.: For a Black improvement, 22...g6! in the analysis above gives Black practical drawing chances in the face of a White advantage. Earlier in the opening, instead of 11...Bd7, the computer suggestion 11... exd5 gives Black level chances after 12. Nc6 Qb6 13. exd5+ Ne5 14. f4 Bg4 15. Qe3 Na4 16. Nxa4 Qxe3+ 17. Bxe3 Nf3+ 18. Kf2 bxa4 = (-0.15 @ 23 depth, Stockfish 6) |
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Feb-12-17
 | | Jimfromprovidence: If 29 Qg5 gets an !, then what does 29 Qg4 (seeing 30 Rg1) get?
click for larger view |
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| Feb-12-17 | | WorstPlayerEver: This game is just insane. The mentioned lines only cover a fraction of it. I almost wrecked my brain. |
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| Feb-12-17 | | JimNorCal: Instead of Re8 can black try Bxg5? |
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| Feb-12-17 | | ChessHigherCat: <Jimfromprovidence: If 29 Qg5 gets an !, then what does 29 Qg4 (seeing 30 Rg1) get?>
See my post above on Qg5 vs. Qg4 and Rg1 |
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| Feb-12-17 | | WorstPlayerEver: <JimNorCal>
That is the toughest line. |
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| Feb-12-17 | | Sharpen Your Tactics: This lead me to this collection and multiple white vs the Sicilian wins. Game Collection: Emory Tate Chess Hero very nice! |
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| Feb-12-17 | | RandomVisitor: <JimNorCal>After 21...Bxg5
click for larger viewKomodo-10.1-64bit:
<+0.44/42 22.Bxg5 Qxg5 23.Rg1 Qh6 24.Rxa4> Nf6 25.Qe3 Qxe3 26.Nxf6+ Kh8 27.fxe3 gxf6 28.c4 Rac8 29.Rxa6 Rxc4 30.Rb1 Rc2 31.Rxd6 Rg8 32.Rg1 Rb2 33.Rd4 Rxg1+ 34.Kxg1 Kg7 35.h3 Re2 36.Re4 Kh6 37.Kf1 Rh2 38.h4 Kh5 39.Rd4 h6 40.Ke1 Rb2 41.e4 Kg4 42.Kd1 Ra2 43.Kc1 Ra6 44.Kd2 Kxh4 45.Kc3 Kg5 46.b5 Rb6 47.Kc4 h5 48.Kc5 Rb8 |
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sac: 19.Nf5