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N E Loran / V M Vladimirov vs Alexander Alekhine
Consultation game (1916), Odessa RUE, Apr-??
Scotch Game: Classical Variation (C45)  ·  0-1

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Kibitzer's Corner
Dec-15-14  TheFocus: Consultation game played in Odessa, Ukraine on May 2, 1916.
Jun-21-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Sergei Tkachenko> has recently published a more accurate provenance for this game in his book "Alekhine's Odessa Secrets" (Elk and Ruby Publishing House 2018), pp. 28-33.

The game was played in April, not May.

"E Loran" is <Nikolai Evgenevich Laurent> (1885 - not before May - 1919).

"V Vlarimirov is <Vasily Modestovich Vladimirov> (1867 - 1942).

Jul-17-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Nikolai Evgenevich Laurent> won the Odessa Championship in 1906.

-Sergei Tkachenko "Alekhine's Odessa Secrets" (Elk and Ruby Publishing House 2018), p.32

=============

In the crosstable for this event, <rusbase> has him listed as "N. Loran":

http://al20102007.narod.ru/nat_tour...

Jul-17-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Nikolai Evgenevich Laurent> was one of the founders of the "Odessa Chess Society," and edited the chess department in the "Odessa News." He also played in the First South Russian Tournament (1910):

<...The meeting will allocate 500 rubles and another separate prize for the most beautiful game. The tournament was held in the magnificent premises of the Odessa Commercial Meeting on 4 Havana Street, the winner and second prize winner were awarded gold tokens. From Odessa they played - Boris Verlinsky, Pavel List, V.M.Vladimirov - one of the founders of the Odessa Chess Society, N. Laurent, S. Kiryakov, from Kiev participated two: Efim Bogolyubov and Stefan Izbinsky, from Kharkov - I. Selivanov, from Rostov-on-Don - B. Yankovich. The first prize (160 rubles) will be won by Boris Verlinsky, who started the tournament with a defeat to Pavel List, but then confidently finished, the second prize will go to Efim Bogolyubov, the third and fourth will be shared by Liszt and Izbinsky. Nikolai Evgenievich Laurent not only played in the tournament, but also edited the chess department in Odessa News.>

As you can see, <V.M.Vladimirov> (Vasily Modestovich Vladimirov), Laurent's consultation partner in this game against <Alekhine>, also played in the First South Russian Tournament (1910).

http://chess45.ru/historychess/42.h...

Jul-17-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

Here is a photograph of <Alekhine> together with <Nikolai Evgenevich Laurent> and <Vasily Modestovich Vladimirov>, on the occasion of this consultation game:

https://images.chesscomfiles.com/pr...

<This picture was taken on May 2, 1916 during the consultation game of Laurent and Vladimirov - Alekhine. Opposite the Moscow maestro sits the treasurer of the Odessa Chess Society, Vasily Modestovich Vladimirov (he is in uniform, as he was the director of the railway school in worldly life). Next to him, recording the game, is Nikolai Evgenievich Laurent - the leader of the chess department in Odessa News (in 1911 he was the editor-publisher of the Odessa journal Chess).>

http://odessastory.info/gallery/dis...

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  Stonehenge: Nikolai Evgenevich Loran rather.

N Loran

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Stonehenge> Thanks for pointing that out. I had posted on this before but forgotten about it. N Laurent / V Vladimirov vs Alekhine, 1916 (kibitz #2)

Even though I can see now it was me who uploaded both games in question.

I would prefer to change N Loran to N. Laurent, as opposed to the other way round.

Why you might ask. Excellent question!

<Sergei Tkachenko> translates Лоран as "Laurent," and so does <Google>.

If you put Н.Лоран into Google translator it gives N. Laurent.

What do you think about it brah.

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Stonehenge>

You know what I think- I think that Alexey Popovsky over at rusbase goes for the most accurate transliteration when he converts a name from Russian to English. So he gives it as "Loran."

I think that some others, including Sergei Tkachenko and the Russian editors at Google translate, prefer to find a homynym that is a more recognizable name in the target language.

So "Laurent" would sound like "Loran," but only if you pronounced in French.

But not if your pronounced it in English. Way back in the day, didn't Russia used to be Francophile? This could be a cultural hold over eh.

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  Stonehenge: Who knows where the name comes from. It's clearly Loran but that doesn't mean Laurent is wrong. Maybe he had French ancestry. Chessbase has Nikolai Evgenevich Loran.
Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Stonehenge>

Having thought about this, absent further information, I would go either way on it. I think both translations have merit.

Can you decide brah and I will follow your decision.

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  Stonehenge: Chessbites and 365chess use Loran too.
Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

lol Well the only thing more I would add is that if we went with <Loran>, we would probably have to get Stephen to fix the consultation name that has "Laurent" inside it. I don't know how to change one of the names in a consultation handle. Can we do that now? Do you know how to do it?

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Stonehenge> I don't consider a preponderance of non-Russian website spelling choices to be necessarily definitive- given that they are not run by Russians, the three you have listed?

There are pluses and minuses here.

On the one hand, they tend to copy the most popular name, which is actually a benefit in my opinion.

On the other hand, Russian sources for a Russian name would likely be more accurate, or at least reflect what Russians would like to see. I could also see that as a benefit.

Should we write a letter to Sergei Tkachenko.

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  Stonehenge: Just a correction slip on the player page will do.

What about N E Loran / V M Vladimirov?

They both have other games in the db, so it's clear who the players are, no need for long names.

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  Stonehenge: I guess Tkachenko also uses Google Translate :)

The name is clearly Loran, and there's not much French about Nikolai Evgenevich either.

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Stonehenge> Sure that sounds good then.

Might you please do it? I had a "bad experience" over on the correction slip page the other day and I'm a little tentative to try repairs I haven't done before.

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Stony> LOLOLOL

No he didn't use Google transalate ahahahahahah

He has an actual translator who isn't a robot for his books.

HAHAHAH I want to write him a letter now and ask him if he translated his book with google.

Thanks brah I haven't had such a good laugh in days.

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Stony> That was fast! Excellent work brah.

This conversation reminded me of pre-google conversations where two or more people try to figure something out with no immediate way of finding the real answer.

This was an activity that got way more fun, and way more inaccurate, the more pints you downed.

Anyways thanks for your help.

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  carpovius: In Russian it's Лоран (Loran). In French Laurent sounds good as well. In English can be used both transliterations, imho.

Here is a nice book of chess history in Russian:

http://chess45.ru/historychess/cont...

In chapter 42 it talks about N. E. Loran))

Jan-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<carpovius> Thank you!

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