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Later Kibitzing> |
| Apr-29-11 | | David2009: Balashov vs R Sabjanov, 1994 White 10? I can't find a good plan or move for White here. 10 e6 Bxe6 11 Rxe6 fxe6 12 Ne5 g6 gives White nothing. Alternatively 10 e6 Bxe6 11 Be3 seeing 11...Qb6 12 b4 but 11...Qd6 seems to hold the extra Pawn.
OTB I would probably settle for 10 Be3 e6 11 Bg5 hoping for exchanges, but 12...Qb6 looks fine for Black. Time to check:
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Missed it - unless this was a spoiler?
click for larger view
Crafty End Game Trainer link to the puzzle position as above:
http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t... The EGT finds the Black defence I was afraid of viz. 10 e6 Bxe6 11 Rxe6 fxe6 12 Ne5 g6 and now 13 Qg4 is met by 13...Bg7 14 Qxe6 Bxe5 etc (  ). Time to read the other kibitzes and see if there is a convincing White win. POSTSCRIPT: Useful kibitzing, in particular the strategic assessments by <Life Master AJ> and <dzechiel>. On reflection 10 e6!? is the best practical chance in an otherwise bad position. <tacticalmonster> gives 10...Bxe6 11 Rxe6 fxe6 12 Ne5 g6 13 Qf3! (the resource I had missed) when the EGT defends with 13...Qc8 with an unclear position. If anyone can beat the EGT from the diagram position, please post your winning line. You are White in the free internet link given above, drag and drop the move you want to make. For maximum satisfaction beat it without using silicon - Fritz 6 or 12 out-gun the EGT because they use greater depth of search, but the EGT is always resourceful and aggressive especially when the endgame proper nears. |
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| Apr-29-11 | | ZUGZWANG67: <<David2009>: The EGT finds the Black defence I was afraid of viz. 10 e6 Bxe6 11 Rxe6 fxe6 12 Ne5 g6 and now 13 Qg4 is met by 13...Bg7 14 Qxe6 Bxe5 etc ( ).> I would prefer 13.Qf3 as it forces something. And in fact RYBKA gives 13.Qf3 +1.83 at 18 ply after 3 minutes; but assesses 13.Qg4 at -0.61 at 18 ply. After 13.Qf3 Qd6 (13...Qa5?? 14.Qf7+ Kd8 15.Nc6+) 14.Qf7+ Kd8 15.Bf4 (threatening a discovered...) 15...Bh6 (forced?) 16.Bxh6 Qxe5 17.Bg7 (Oooops!) 
click for larger view 17...Qe4 etc...By the time I finished writing this Rybka reevaluates 13.Qf3 at 1.76 at 20 ply and roughly 8 minutes; and 13.Qg4= -0.58. A question arises after 13.Qf3 and it is this one: where play the BQ? At some point during it's analysis RYBKA bet on 13...Qb6 and 13...Qc7 but turned to 13...Qd6. One problem with the b8/h2 diagonal is the arrival of the WB at f4 (moreover 13...Qb8 has the additional drawback of Nxc6+ after the BK reaches d8). But why not 13...Qb6? Here is what I found: 14.Qf7+ Kd6 15.Qxe6 threatens 16.Nf7+ and 16.Qd7 mate. So 15...Kc7 but 16.Qd7+ anyway; and 16...Kb8 17.Nxc6+ wins the BQ. Finally, I believe, still, that B should answer 10...f6 after 10.e6. This has the virtue of avoiding several acid moves such as Ne5, Ng5 and removes the teeth from Qf3. Thus, the puzzle today has the point of forcing B into a positional disadvantage if he wishes to stay alive. That is, he must play 10...f6. But then the e6-pawn is strong. Peace! |
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| Apr-29-11 | | ZUGZWANG67: <<ZUGZWANG67>:......Here is what I found: 14.Qf7+ Kd6.....> Rather 14...Kd8. |
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| Apr-29-11 | | goodevans: <David2009: ... I can't find a good plan or move for White here. 10 e6 Bxe6 11 Rxe6 fxe6 12 Ne5 g6 gives White nothing.> I do so enjoy pitting my wits against Crafty. This time, though, its chosen defence isn't too hard to crack: <10 e6 Bxe6 11 Rxe6 fxe6 12 Ne5 g6> (... Qb8 is probably best) <13 Qf3 Qc8 14 Qf7+ Kd8 15 Bf4 g5 16 Bxg5>. This much I'd worked out previously before you posted the Crafty link. <16 ... Ra7 17 Bf4 Rb7 18 Nd3> threating Nc5. At this point Crafty chooses to give up the B with <18 ... Bh6> which leaves white with a clear advantage. After that the win is just "a matter of technique" (which is code for the fact that I screwed up a dozen of so moves later! However, at the point where I blundered I still had a good advantage). |
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| Apr-29-11 | | newton296: <If anyone can beat the EGT from the diagram position, please post your winning line.> houdini mated EGT in 34 moves! lol! guess egt isn't as strong as you thought. 1. e6 Bxe6 2. Rxe6 fxe6 3. Ne5 g6 4. Qf3 Qc8 5. Qf7+ Kd8 6. Bf4 g5 7. Bxg5 Ra7 8. Bf4 Rb7 9. Nd3 Bh6 10. Bxh6 c4 11. Nc5 Rxb2 12. Bg5 Re8 13. Nxe6+ Kd7 14. Re1 c5 15. Ng7 Rh8 16. Qxd5+ Kc7 17. Ne6+ Kb8 18. Nxc5 Rd8 19. Nxa6+ Ka7 20. Qa5 Rd6 21. Nc5+ Kb8 22. Bf4 h6 23. Bxd6+ exd6 24. Na6+ Kb7 25. Re7+ Kc6 26. Nb4+ Rxb4 27. cxb4 Qb7 28. b5+ Kc5 29. Rxb7 Kd5 30. Re7 Kd4 31. b6 h5 32. b7 c3 33. b8=Q d5 34. Qab4# |
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| Apr-29-11 | | rilkefan: I seem to be making progress against the EGT with h4, but it keeps playing ...c4 and I can't resist opening up the qside and then can't keep both wings under control enough to win. |
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| Apr-29-11 | | cyclon: Quite late now, but let's see. I'd suggest 10.e6. Other moves are rather developing moves. Aim of this move is to hinder Blacks development. If Black rejects the sacrifice by 10. -f6, then 11.Nh4 g6 (-h5 12.Qd3 and Blacks got simply too many holes in his boat) 12.Qg4 Rg8 (-f5 13.Nxf5/-Bg7 13.Nf5) 13.c4 and Blacks got some serious cramps. If he accepts by 10. -Bxe6, then 11.Rxe6 fxe6 12.Ne5 and if -Qd6/c7/b8, then 13.Bf4 with clear advantage, also 13.Qh5+ may be plausible. After (12.Ne5) -g6 13.Qf3 Qc8 14.Qf7+ Kd8 15.Be3 Black is almost completely locked. Whites plan may be Bxc5-c4-Rd1. If (12.Ne5) -Qc7, then 13.Qh5+ g6 14.Nxg6 hxg6 15.Qxh8 o-o-o 16.Qg8, Whites edge. If (10.e6) -fxe6, then 11.Ne5 g6 (threat was 12.Qh5+) 12.Be3 with clear bind though I did not find a short clear-cut win for White. |
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| Apr-29-11 | | ZUGZWANG67: <<newton296> 1. e6 Bxe6 2. Rxe6 fxe6 3. Ne5 g6 4. Qf3 Qc8 5. Qf7+ Kd8 6. Bf4 g5> Funnily RYBKA prefers 13...Qd6 (see my previous post). The move 15...g5 is probably the best way to prevent something like Nd3 followed by Be5, I guess. From d3 the WN would eye c5, and from there e6. But again I think 10...f6 is best for B. |
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| Apr-29-11 | | wals: Rybka 4 x 64
d 21 : 35 min :
1.  (0.33): 10.Qd2 e6 11.Qf4 h6 12.Qg3 a5 13.h3 a4 14.Bd2 Qb6 15.b3 Qa6 16.Qg4 axb3 17.cxb3 Qd3 18.a4 Rb8 19.b4 Qc4 2. (0.29): 10.h3 e6 11.Nh2 Be7 12.Qg4 Kf8 13.Be3 Rb8 14.Rab1 h6 15.b4 cxb4 16.cxb4 a5 17.a3 Kg8 18.Nf3 axb4 19.axb4 Ba6 20.Bc5 Kh7 21.Nd4 Bxc5 22.bxc5 |
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| Apr-29-11 | | estrick: <David2009>
Took me about 20 tries again, but eventually was able to keep EGT bottled up until I could force favorable trades, get the exchange back, and come out a couple of pawns ahead in a Bishop ending. 10 e6 Be6
11 Re6 fe6
12 Ne5 g6
13 Qf3 Qc8
14 Qf7+ Kd8
15 Bg5 Rb8
16 b3 Ra8
17 Re1 Ra7
18 Nd3 e5
19 Rxe5 c4
20 Nc5 Kc7
21 Bf4 Kd8
22 Ne6+ Kd7
23 Ng5 Kd8
24 Nxh7 cxb3
25 cxb3 Rxh7
26 Qxh7 Qd7
27 Qxg6 Qd6
28 Qf7 Qf6
29 Qxf6 exf6
30 Re6 Re7
31 Rxe7 Kxe7 |
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| Apr-29-11 | | gofer: <David 2009>
Crafty EGT really comes unstuck but only if you play a cramped game! <
10 e6 Bxe6
11 Rxe6 fxe6
12 Ne5 g6
13 Qf3 Qc8
14 Bg5 Rb8
15 b3 Rb7
16 Re1 d4
17 c4 Ra7
18 Qf7+ Kd8
19 Nd3! e5?
20 Rxe5 Kc7
21 Nxc5 Kb8
22 Ne6! ...>
This closes down the game.
<
22 ... a5
23 Rc5 Ka8
24 Bf4 a4
25 b4 g5
26 Be5 d3
27 cxd3 Bg7
28 Bxg7 Re8
29 a3 Qd7
30 d4 g4
31 Be5 Rc8
32 g3 h5
33 Qf5 Qb7?
34 Qxh5 Ra6
35 Qxg4 Ra7
36 h4 winning easily!> |
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Apr-29-11
 | | Phony Benoni: <patzer2> Was that meant for the Rogoff page? |
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| Apr-29-11 | | patzer2: <Phony Benoni> Yes it was, I've already deleted it here. |
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| Apr-29-11 | | stst: Tiresome vs Difficulty!
Apparently the two poles for Bk K are f7 and d7, both of which will be under attack if W N can go e5, this gives clue as first to advance P to e6:
10.e6 Bxe6 (if fxe6, the h5-e8 diagonal will be exposed)
11.Rxe6 (R sac) fxe6
12.Ne5 g6 (forbid Qh5+)
13.Qf3 Qd8 (allow escape sq for K)
14.Qf7+ Kd8
15.Bg5 Kc7 (escaping)
16.Bxe7 Kb8...
and it's still a long way to go |
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Apr-29-11
| | Phony Benoni: When chessgames.com first started these puzzles, they often called them <tactical exercises>. I think that's a good description of what we've got today. Generally, a puzzle has a more or less definite answer. It may be hidden and fiendishly difficult to find, but it's there. Today, we are presented with a common tactical device: sacrificing a pawn and/or the exchange on e6. This doubles Black's e-pawns, establishes a strong outpost knight, and slows Black's kingside development. Most everybody has found the first three moves or so, but trying to decide if either side has sufficient compensation is like trying to decide if the Sicilian Defense is sound or not; there's just too many variations. Even our Dueling Engines are having problems making a definitive justment. What we can do instead is consider ideas for both sides that arise in this type of position. In other words, <tactical exercise> that will benefit us when the opportunity arises. Yes, this is an example of chess for dumbbells. |
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| Apr-30-11 | | cyclon: <stst:> <13.Qf3 Qd8 (allow escape sq for K)
14.Qf7+ Kd8> Sorry, King and a Queen cannot occupy same square at the same time. |
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| Apr-30-11 | | Once: <Phony Benoni> Excellent summary! I would only add one thought. I am not so sure that the term "tactical" quite does it for me. This puzzle seems to be bordering on the strategic where precise calculation is not as important as imprecise fuzzy judgment. The patzer adds up the material values of pieces to decide whether a line is worth playing or not. By contrast a GM puts a "value" on things that cannot be measured - open lines against the enemy king, depriving him of the right to castle, an outpost for a knight, etc. Perhaps that is why CG dropped the term "tactical exercise"? It's not just a case of "white to move and mate in 3", but "what would you play in this position?". And that could be just as much a matter of intuition and judgement about a strategic position as it could be a matter of analysis and calculation about a tactical position. |
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| Apr-30-11 | | cyclon: <Once:> A good comment. |
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Jul-13-24
 | | Korora: Well, I was right about the ♕ moving, though I had the wrong destination square in mind. |
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| Jul-13-24 | | mel gibson: I knew it was moving the Queen but where?
Stockfish 16.1 chooses a different ply:
13. Qf3
(13. Qf3 (1.Qf3 0-0-0 2.Nf7 g6 3.Nxh8 Bg7 4.Nf7 Rf8 5.Qe3 Kd7 6.Ng5 Rf6 7.b3
Qc7 8.Ba3 h6 9.Nf3 Rf5 10.Bxc5 e5 11.Re1 Ke8 12.b4 e4 13.Nd4 Rh5 14.h3 Bf6
) +5.40/40 66)
score for White +5.40 depth 40.
If I force SF to play the game ply:
13. Qg4
(13. .. c4 (1. ... c4 2.Qxe6 Qc7 3.Bf4 Qd6 4.Qf7+ Kd8 5.Qf5 e6 6.Qf7 Be7
7.Nxc4 Qd7 8.Qxg7 Rf8 9.Nb6 Qb7 10.Bg5 Re8 11.Nxa8 Qxa8 12.Bxe7+ Rxe7
13.Qf8+ Re8 14.Qd6+ Kc8 ) -5.02/43 262)
score for Black -5.02 depth 43. |
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| Jul-13-24 | | Mayankk: 13 Qh5+ g6 14 Nxg6 hxg6 15 Qxh8 is a standard set of moves which unfortunately only maintain parity. After 15 ... Kd7 16 Bh6 Qd8 or even 15 ... Kf7, it is difficult to say White has any advantage. If 13 Qh5+ doesn't work then what does? 13 Qg4, 14 Qxe6, 15 Bf4/Bg5, 16 Re1 etc seems another strategy, idea being that Black pieces are so tied up that White has all the time in the world to mobilise its remaining resources and gang up on the Black King. But does it really have so much time ? With so many defensive choices for Black, beyond my pay grade. |
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Jul-13-24
 | | Diocletian: ENGINE: 1) +6.15 (29) ply
1.Qf3 O-O-O 2.Nf7 Rg8 3.Qh3 g5 4.Qxe6+ Kc7 5.Nxd8 Rg6 6.Qf7 Rf6. Yes, even an amateur like me could have looked beyond Qh5+, which as <Mayankk>notes, offers only material equality. I believe I could have skipped the engine and found this myself with maybe a half-minute or minute of study. Full credit for Friday! |
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Jul-13-24
 | | chrisowen: Hat crawl it was mrs pink Qg4 gack imbibe aea it was oar aeschylus it was oh it was Qg4 bah it was :) |
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Jul-13-24
| | chrisowen: I just play: |
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| Jul-13-24 | | TheaN: Surprisingly not that difficult, considering the alternative Qh5+ with Nxg6 just seems so... stale. Black's king side is tied up and you really want Black to spend the time getting unstuck rather than White doing it by force. 13.Qf3 +- or <13.Qg4 +-> doesn't matter <that> much, though the resulting positions are actually quite different. The former is slightly better (to my surprise to be honest) because Qf3 disallows Rd8 (because of Qf7#). After 13.Qf3 O-O-O 14.Nf7 and White wins a rook as after 14....Rg8 15.Qh3 +- anyway and White will take on e6 (considering Black has to do something about Qxh7) and shortly after on g8. During all of that Black can't free up the Bishop. After <13.Qg4>, White allows the immediate <13....Rd8> after which <14.Qxe6 Rd6 15.Qf7+ Kd8 16.Qf5 +-> is somewhat playable for Black, though White still has a huge advantage in activity alone (and at this point the pawns start to count as well). I left it there, considering it's better to keep the position and leave the material than vice-versa. |
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Kibitzing
sac: 11.Rxe6